Pronunciation of "Asperger" in "Asperger syndrome"

[Guy Barry]

I keep hearing all sorts of variants of this one. Hans Asperger was
Austrian, so you'd expect his name to be given something approximating to
the German pronunciation, like /'&***@g@/ (ASS-pair-guh); but I don't think
I've ever heard that. I usually say something like /'&spV"g@/
(ASS-purr-guh), but I sometimes hear it with second-syllable stress as
/@s'pV"g@/ (a-SPUR-guh), and quite frequently with a soft "g" in the third
syllable, either as /'&spV"dZ@/ (ASS-purr-juh) or /@s'pV"dZ@/
(a-SPUR-juh). As German doesn't have a soft "g" these can't possibly be
right, but I suspect that some speakers don't realize that it's a German
name.

Add to that the confusion over whether there should be a possessive marker
after the name ("Asperger's syndrome" used to be much more common), and
you've got a bewildering range of options. What do you say?

[Leslie Danks]

Post by Guy Barry
I keep hearing all sorts of variants of this one. Hans Asperger was
Austrian, so you'd expect his name to be given something approximating
don't think
(ASS-purr-guh), but I sometimes hear it with second-syllable stress as
(a-SPUR-juh). As German doesn't have a soft "g" these can't possibly
be right, but I suspect that some speakers don't realize that it's a
German name.
Add to that the confusion over whether there should be a possessive
marker after the name ("Asperger's syndrome" used to be much more
common), and
you've got a bewildering range of options. What do you say?

The matter appears to be in flux. Here's what WikiP says about it:

[q] Punctuation
In 1975, the Canadian National Institutes of Health held a conference
that discussed the naming of diseases and conditions. This was reported
in The Lancet where the conclusion was summarized as: "The possessive
use of an eponym should be discontinued, since the author neither had
nor owned the disorder."[2] Medical journals, dictionaries and style
guides remain divided on this issue. European journals tend towards
continued use the possessive, while US journals are largely
discontinuing its use.[3] [/q]

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_eponymously_named_diseases>

[Guy Barry]

Post by Leslie Danks
[q] Punctuation
In 1975, the Canadian National Institutes of Health held a conference
that discussed the naming of diseases and conditions. This was reported
in The Lancet where the conclusion was summarized as: "The possessive
use of an eponym should be discontinued, since the author neither had
nor owned the disorder."[2] Medical journals, dictionaries and style
guides remain divided on this issue. European journals tend towards
continued use the possessive, while US journals are largely
discontinuing its use.[3] [/q]

That wasn't my main point, but I would point out that if the word "syndrome"
is omitted then the use of the possessive form becomes mandatory, e.g. "He
has Asperger's" (not "He has Asperger").

[Dr. HotSalt]

Post by Guy Barry

Post by Leslie Danks
[q] Punctuation
In 1975, the Canadian National Institutes of Health held a conference
that discussed the naming of diseases and conditions. This was reported
in The Lancet where the conclusion was summarized as: "The possessive
use of an eponym should be discontinued, since the author neither had
nor owned the disorder."[2] Medical journals, dictionaries and style
guides remain divided on this issue. European journals tend towards
continued use the possessive, while US journals are largely
discontinuing its use.[3] [/q]

In medical practice, medical conditions are usually named for the first patient definitively identified as having the condition, not the practitioner who first identified it.

I suspect the syndrome bears Asperger's name because the patients he worked with were children, whose names (AFAIK) were never published.

Post by Guy Barry
That wasn't my main point, but I would point out that if the word "syndrome"
is omitted then the use of the possessive form becomes mandatory, e.g. "He
has Asperger's" (not "He has Asperger").

"He has Asperger's" is common. Also, you can say "He's an Aspie". We Aspies do not consider the term offensive, as most of us do not consider ourselves to be "suffering".


Dr. HotSalt

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Dr. HotSalt

Post by Leslie Danks
In 1975, the Canadian National Institutes of Health held a conference
that discussed the naming of diseases and conditions. This was reported
in The Lancet where the conclusion was summarized as: "The possessive
use of an eponym should be discontinued, since the author neither had
nor owned the disorder."[2] Medical journals, dictionaries and style
guides remain divided on this issue. European journals tend towards
continued use the possessive, while US journals are largely
discontinuing its use.[3] [/q]

In medical practice, medical conditions are usually named for the first patient definitively identified as having the condition, not the practitioner who first identified it.

This is not correct. Mr. Down did not have Down('s) Syndrome.

Mr. Hodgkins did not have Hodgkins(') Disease.

Mr. Hansen was not a leper.

The anonymity of patients is zealously protected.

While Lou Gehrig did have Lou Gehrig Disease, that's not its medical name.
Nor will it be renamed "Stephen Hawking Disease."

[Tony Cooper]

On Fri, 28 Feb 2014 14:20:21 -0800 (PST), "Dr. HotSalt"

Post by Dr. HotSalt

Post by Leslie Danks
[q] Punctuation
In 1975, the Canadian National Institutes of Health held a conference
that discussed the naming of diseases and conditions. This was reported
in The Lancet where the conclusion was summarized as: "The possessive
use of an eponym should be discontinued, since the author neither had
nor owned the disorder."[2] Medical journals, dictionaries and style
guides remain divided on this issue. European journals tend towards
continued use the possessive, while US journals are largely
discontinuing its use.[3] [/q]

In medical practice, medical conditions are usually named for the first patient definitively identified as having the condition, not the practitioner who first identified it.

I've never heard of that. Crone's disease (Dr Burrill B.Crone), Lyme
disease (Lyme and Old Lyme CT where it was first observed),
Legionnaires' disease (1978 outbreak at Legionnaires' convention),
Parkinson's disease (Dr James Parkinson), Tourette Syndrome (Dr Gilles
de la Tourette), Down Syndrome (Dr John Langdon Down), and Lou
Gehrig's Disease (Lou Gehrig, patient and baseball player) show that
there is no "usually".

[Skitt]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 28 Feb 2014 14:20:21 -0800 (PST), "Dr. HotSalt"

Post by Dr. HotSalt

Post by Leslie Danks
[q] Punctuation
In 1975, the Canadian National Institutes of Health held a conference
that discussed the naming of diseases and conditions. This was reported
in The Lancet where the conclusion was summarized as: "The possessive
use of an eponym should be discontinued, since the author neither had
nor owned the disorder."[2] Medical journals, dictionaries and style
guides remain divided on this issue. European journals tend towards
continued use the possessive, while US journals are largely
discontinuing its use.[3] [/q]

In medical practice, medical conditions are usually named for the first patient definitively identified as having the condition, not the practitioner who first identified it.

I've never heard of that. Crone's disease (Dr Burrill B.Crone),

That is Crohn's disease (Dr. Burrill B. Crohn)

Post by Tony Cooper
Lyme disease (Lyme and Old Lyme CT where it was first observed),
Legionnaires' disease (1978 outbreak at Legionnaires' convention),
Parkinson's disease (Dr James Parkinson), Tourette Syndrome (Dr Gilles
de la Tourette), Down Syndrome (Dr John Langdon Down), and Lou
Gehrig's Disease (Lou Gehrig, patient and baseball player) show that
there is no "usually".

[Garrett Wollman]

Post by Leslie Danks
[q] Punctuation
In 1975, the Canadian National Institutes of Health held a conference
that discussed the naming of diseases and conditions. This was reported
in The Lancet where the conclusion was summarized as: "The possessive
use of an eponym should be discontinued, since the author neither had
nor owned the disorder."[2]

Perhaps they should have invited some linguists to this conference. I
have a feeling most linguists (at least the ones who specialize in
English grammar) would describe this position as nonsensical.

-GAWollman

[Mike L]

Post by Garrett Wollman

Post by Leslie Danks
[q] Punctuation
In 1975, the Canadian National Institutes of Health held a conference
that discussed the naming of diseases and conditions. This was reported
in The Lancet where the conclusion was summarized as: "The possessive
use of an eponym should be discontinued, since the author neither had
nor owned the disorder."[2]

Perhaps they should have invited some linguists to this conference. I
have a feeling most linguists (at least the ones who specialize in
English grammar) would describe this position as nonsensical.

Bloody madhouse. The English personal eponyms of discoveries,
processes, etc _should_ generally take an apostrophe:

Butterfly: Carswell's Little Blue
Bird: Ruppell's Vulture
Plant: Babington's Leek
Fish: Agassiz' Dwarf Cichlid
Heavenly body: Barnard's Star
Mammal: Emin's Giant Rat ...

Need I continue?

[R H Draney]

Post by Mike L
Bloody madhouse. The English personal eponyms of discoveries,
Butterfly: Carswell's Little Blue
Bird: Ruppell's Vulture
Plant: Babington's Leek
Fish: Agassiz' Dwarf Cichlid
Heavenly body: Barnard's Star
Mammal: Emin's Giant Rat ...
Need I continue?

At least until you get to "Pinkham's Medicinal Compound"....r

[b***@gmail.com]

Post by R H Draney

Post by Mike L
Bloody madhouse. The English personal eponyms of discoveries,
Butterfly: Carswell's Little Blue
Bird: Ruppell's Vulture
Plant: Babington's Leek
Fish: Agassiz' Dwarf Cichlid
Heavenly body: Barnard's Star
Mammal: Emin's Giant Rat ...
Need I continue?

At least until you get to "Pinkham's Medicinal Compound"....r
--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

Didn't Aspergers used to be the A in ADD and ADDH?

[Robert Bannister]

Post by b***@gmail.com
Didn't Aspergers used to be the A in ADD and ADDH?

Asperger's Deficient? I don't think so. Pay attention.

[Guy Barry]

Post by b***@gmail.com
Didn't Aspergers used to be the A in ADD and ADDH?

Don't think so. ADD stands for "Attention Deficit Disorder" and ADHD (which
is what I assume you meant to write) for "Attention Deficit Hyperactivity
Disorder". "Asperger's Deficit Disorder" wouldn't make a great deal of
sense.

[b***@gmail.com]

Post by R H Draney

Post by Mike L
Bloody madhouse. The English personal eponyms of discoveries,
Butterfly: Carswell's Little Blue
Bird: Ruppell's Vulture
Plant: Babington's Leek
Fish: Agassiz' Dwarf Cichlid
Heavenly body: Barnard's Star
Mammal: Emin's Giant Rat ...
Need I continue?

At least until you get to "Pinkham's Medicinal Compound"....r
--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

Didn't Aspergers used to be the A in ADD and ADHD?

and didn't he put the bomp / In the bomp bah bomp bah bomp / I'd like to thank him for the song / That made my baby fall in love with me /

[CDB]

Post by Mike L

Post by Garrett Wollman

[q] Punctuation In 1975, the Canadian National Institutes of
Health held a conference that discussed the naming of diseases
and conditions. This was reported in The Lancet where the
conclusion was summarized as: "The possessive use of an eponym
should be discontinued, since the author neither had nor owned
the disorder."[2]

Perhaps they should have invited some linguists to this conference.
I have a feeling most linguists (at least the ones who specialize
in English grammar) would describe this position as nonsensical.

Bloody madhouse. The English personal eponyms of discoveries,
Butterfly: Carswell's Little Blue Bird: Ruppell's Vulture
Plant: Babington's Leek Fish: Agassiz' Dwarf Cichlid
Heavenly body: Barnard's Star Mammal: Emin's Giant Rat ...
Need I continue?

No, no, I've already got Sophomore's Syndrome. "It's this bloody great
carbuncle, Doctor," said the rat. "On me bum, see."

[Mark Brader]

Post by Garrett Wollman

Post by Leslie Danks
[q] Punctuation
In 1975, the Canadian National Institutes of Health held a conference
that discussed the naming of diseases and conditions. This was reported
in The Lancet where the conclusion was summarized as: "The possessive
use of an eponym should be discontinued, since the author neither had
nor owned the disorder."[2]

Perhaps they should have invited some linguists to this conference.

Perhaps they shouldn't've held it in Quebec.


(I don't know where they actually held it -- until now I hadn't heard
that the conference was in Canada at all. This is a jocular reference
to Quebec's language laws and the renaming of e.g. Eaton's stores in
that province to Eaton.)

[Peter Percival]

Post by Guy Barry
I keep hearing all sorts of variants of this one. Hans Asperger was
Austrian, so you'd expect his name to be given something approximating
(ASS-purr-guh), but I sometimes hear it with second-syllable stress as
(a-SPUR-juh). As German doesn't have a soft "g" these can't possibly be
right, but I suspect that some speakers don't realize that it's a German
name.

I often hear it pronounced as if it were spelt (or even spelled) aspberger!

Post by Guy Barry
Add to that the confusion over whether there should be a possessive
marker after the name ("Asperger's syndrome" used to be much more
common), and you've got a bewildering range of options. What do you say?

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Guy Barry
I keep hearing all sorts of variants of this one. Hans Asperger was
Austrian, so you'd expect his name to be given something approximating
(ASS-purr-guh), but I sometimes hear it with second-syllable stress as
(a-SPUR-juh).

I don't think I've ever heard anything but /'&s,***@rg@r/. Well, as Peter
Percival says, some people may use a /b/ instead of the /p/.

Post by Guy Barry
As German doesn't have a soft "g" these can't possibly be
right, but I suspect that some speakers don't realize that it's a German
name.

Or it doesn't matter to them, or they don't know anything about German.

Post by Guy Barry
Add to that the confusion over whether there should be a possessive
marker after the name ("Asperger's syndrome" used to be much more
common), and you've got a bewildering range of options. What do you say?

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 27 Feb 2014 08:39:19 -0700, Jerry Friedman

Post by Guy Barry
Add to that the confusion over whether there should be a possessive
marker after the name ("Asperger's syndrome" used to be much more
common), and you've got a bewildering range of options. What do you say?

Some of the medical journals discourage the use of the possessive on
the basis that it's not the doctor's disease/condition. The doctor is
just the person who did enough research on the disease/condition that
it is associated with his name.

[Leslie Danks]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 27 Feb 2014 08:39:19 -0700, Jerry Friedman

Post by Guy Barry
Add to that the confusion over whether there should be a possessive
marker after the name ("Asperger's syndrome" used to be much more
common), and you've got a bewildering range of options. What do you say?

Some of the medical journals discourage the use of the possessive on
the basis that it's not the doctor's disease/condition. The doctor is
just the person who did enough research on the disease/condition that
it is associated with his name.

This controversy is not new and is not restricted to medicine. Here is a
letter to the editor of "Auk" from 1910 (had to retype it).

[q]
Dear Sirs: - Black, White, Green, Gray; Pond, Moor, Wood, Lake, Beach;
Fish, Bush, Crane, Stone; Little, Strong, Swift, King, Small; - these,
and others of the same sort, are common surnames and as likely to belong
to naturalists as anybody else.
Surely this is sufficient rebuttal of the arguments in favour of
dropping the possessive s and apostrophe from the common names of birds
and beasts named after men.
Sincerely yours, Gerald H. Thayer
Monadnock, N.H., June 15, 1910
[/q]

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 27 Feb 2014 08:39:19 -0700, Jerry Friedman

Post by Guy Barry
Add to that the confusion over whether there should be a possessive
marker after the name ("Asperger's syndrome" used to be much more
common), and you've got a bewildering range of options. What do you say?

Some of the medical journals discourage the use of the possessive on
the basis that it's not the doctor's disease/condition. The doctor is
just the person who did enough research on the disease/condition that
it is associated with his name.

Let's hope they know more medicine than grammar.

If Eric Walker were here, he'd say the medical editors' mistake is
caused by the use of the term "possessive" instead of "genitive".

[b***@gmail.com]

On Thursday, February 27, 2014 12:09:39 AM UTC-8, Guy Barry wrote:
and obsessing over the question could suggest you have the condition

[Guy Barry]

Post by b***@gmail.com
and obsessing over the question could suggest you have the condition

Or it could suggest that I'm interested in English usage, like other posters
to this group.

[b***@gmail.com]

Post by Guy Barry

Post by b***@gmail.com
and obsessing over the question could suggest you have the condition

Or it could suggest that I'm interested in English usage, like other posters
to this group.
--
Guy Barry

excuse me but i betcha if it wasn't for obsessing u wouldn't be interested in English usage or Asperger's :-))

[Guy Barry]

Post by b***@gmail.com
excuse me but i betcha if it wasn't for obsessing u wouldn't be interested
in English usage or Asperger's :-))

I'm not "obsessed" with it, it was just a term that came up a couple of
times on the radio with different pronunciations recently, so I thought it'd
make an interesting topic for this group.

I don't recall seeing your name here before, but I suspect you may be
trolling.

[b***@gmail.com]

Post by Guy Barry

Post by b***@gmail.com
excuse me but i betcha if it wasn't for obsessing u wouldn't be interested
in English usage or Asperger's :-))

I'm not "obsessed" with it, it was just a term that came up a couple of
times on the radio with different pronunciations recently, so I thought it'd
make an interesting topic for this group.
I don't recall seeing your name here before, but I suspect you may be
trolling.
--
Guy Barry

Ahhhhh i see now the true source of your objection outs Mister Nary

[CDB]

Post by Guy Barry

Post by b***@gmail.com
excuse me but i betcha if it wasn't for obsessing u wouldn't be
interested in English usage or Asperger's :-))

I'm not "obsessed" with it, it was just a term that came up a couple
of times on the radio with different pronunciations recently, so I
thought it'd make an interesting topic for this group.
I don't recall seeing your name here before, but I suspect you may be
trolling.

In a funny kind of way. "Drive-by posting", maybe.

He usually signs himself "Bozo de Niro" (my caps).

[Mike L]

Post by CDB

Post by Guy Barry

Post by b***@gmail.com
excuse me but i betcha if it wasn't for obsessing u wouldn't be
interested in English usage or Asperger's :-))

I'm not "obsessed" with it, it was just a term that came up a couple
of times on the radio with different pronunciations recently, so I
thought it'd make an interesting topic for this group.
I don't recall seeing your name here before, but I suspect you may be
trolling.

In a funny kind of way. "Drive-by posting", maybe.
He usually signs himself "Bozo de Niro" (my caps).

Some groups get quite a few drive-bys. Talk.origins, for example.
IIRC, one that whizzed through there said simply WTTEO "Who does this
guy Darwin think he is? He's an idiot!" Others turn out to be course
work by students at one of those weird American places where they
train you as a minister of bibleolatry. To fulfil the requirement for
the assignment, all the scholar need do is challenge an unbeliever
with an unanswerable argument against biological evolution and report
back that the spawn of Satan had nothing to say in reply.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Mike L
Some groups get quite a few drive-bys. Talk.origins, for example.
IIRC, one that whizzed through there said simply WTTEO "Who does this
guy Darwin think he is? He's an idiot!" Others turn out to be course
work by students at one of those weird American places where they
train you as a minister of bibleolatry. To fulfil the requirement for
the assignment, all the scholar need do is challenge an unbeliever
with an unanswerable argument against biological evolution and report
back that the spawn of Satan had nothing to say in reply.

Even if they don't wait to see whether a reply ensues?

[Mike L]

On Fri, 28 Feb 2014 14:19:16 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Mike L
Some groups get quite a few drive-bys. Talk.origins, for example.
IIRC, one that whizzed through there said simply WTTEO "Who does this
guy Darwin think he is? He's an idiot!" Others turn out to be course
work by students at one of those weird American places where they
train you as a minister of bibleolatry. To fulfil the requirement for
the assignment, all the scholar need do is challenge an unbeliever
with an unanswerable argument against biological evolution and report
back that the spawn of Satan had nothing to say in reply.

Even if they don't wait to see whether a reply ensues?

Heaven forbid that I should suggest any of these would-be fleecers of
the flock might bend the rules.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by CDB

Post by Guy Barry

Post by b***@gmail.com
excuse me but i betcha if it wasn't for obsessing u wouldn't be
interested in English usage or Asperger's :-))

I'm not "obsessed" with it, it was just a term that came up a couple
of times on the radio with different pronunciations recently, so I
thought it'd make an interesting topic for this group.
I don't recall seeing your name here before, but I suspect you may be
trolling.

In a funny kind of way. "Drive-by posting", maybe.
He usually signs himself "Bozo de Niro" (my caps).

Which is an indication that he's not trolling but joking. (See "drown"
thread.)

[CDB]

Post by b***@gmail.com
and obsessing over the question could suggest you have the condition

Do you have a cold, Bozo?

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Guy Barry
As German doesn't have a soft "g" these can't possibly be
right, but I suspect that some speakers don't realize that it's a German
name.

Why should they? I have no idea where all the different
scientific people come from whose name is used to designate
something.

Foreign names in Danish are pronounced in at least three ways,
and it is not possible to say which is more correct than the
other, but those using 1. are most inclined to critisize the
others. I call the languiage L:

1. as close to the correct L pronunciation as possible.
2. simple Danish.
3. a pronunciation made with L sounds, but which does not exist
in L.

[James Silverton]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Guy Barry
As German doesn't have a soft "g" these can't possibly be
right, but I suspect that some speakers don't realize that it's a German
name.

Why should they? I have no idea where all the different
scientific people come from whose name is used to designate
something.
Foreign names in Danish are pronounced in at least three ways,
and it is not possible to say which is more correct than the
other, but those using 1. are most inclined to critisize the
1. as close to the correct L pronunciation as possible.
2. simple Danish.
3. a pronunciation made with L sounds, but which does not exist
in L.

My own practice in English is to pronounce foreign names as nearly as
possible using US-E vowel and consonant sounds. I don't think there is
any discourtesy in this. Fowler also has "To say a French word in the
middle of an English sentence exactly as it would be said by a Frenchman
in a French sentence is a feat demanding an acrobatic mouth..... It is a
feat that should not be attempted."

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by James Silverton
My own practice in English is to pronounce foreign names as nearly as
possible using US-E vowel and consonant sounds. I don't think there is
any discourtesy in this. Fowler also has "To say a French word in the
middle of an English sentence exactly as it would be said by a Frenchman
in a French sentence is a feat demanding an acrobatic mouth..... It is a
feat that should not be attempted."

Some English pronunciations (sometimes moderated a bit by a
Danish tongue) have been so incorporated into Danish that we see
them as Danish sounds. Therefore it seems natural to us to
pronounce English names with this pronunciation, and since the
sounds are moderated, they do not demand any acrobatic stunts
from our mouth.

But in general I agree with what you write. It's not just the
acrobatic that is a problem. The listener is not ready for a
French word at all and this may throw him off the track. The
speaker then ought to say: "Excuse my French!".

[CDB]

Post by James Silverton
My own practice in English is to pronounce foreign names as nearly
as possible using US-E vowel and consonant sounds. I don't think
there is any discourtesy in this. Fowler also has "To say a French
word in the middle of an English sentence exactly as it would be
said by a Frenchman in a French sentence is a feat demanding an
acrobatic mouth..... It is a feat that should not be attempted."

Some English pronunciations (sometimes moderated a bit by a Danish
tongue) have been so incorporated into Danish that we see them as
Danish sounds. Therefore it seems natural to us to pronounce English
names with this pronunciation, and since the sounds are moderated,
they do not demand any acrobatic stunts from our mouth.
But in general I agree with what you write. It's not just the
acrobatic that is a problem. The listener is not ready for a French
word at all and this may throw him off the track. The speaker then
ought to say: "Excuse my French!".

The question-mark suggests that may be a joke, but I ask just in case:
are you aware that the phrase is most often used as a half-joking
apology for vulgar or blasphemous language? "Jesus Christ, Madam!
(excuse my French)."

I suppose the idea is that the hearer may be too gently-reared to know
what those foreign words mean.

[j***@mdfs.net]

Fowler also has "To say a French word in the middle of an English
sentence exactly as it would be said by a Frenchman in a French
sentence is a feat demanding an acrobatic mouth..... It is a
feat that should not be attempted."

That's what keeps smashing the train of speech when news reporters
gabble on in English about something happening in the middle east,
and then suddenly throw in a placename pronunced in the language
of the placename and not in the language of the rest of the sentence.

You're talking in English, dammit, it's Bar-rain, not ba'hiccup-rain.

jgh

[James Silverton]

Post by j***@mdfs.net

Fowler also has "To say a French word in the middle of an English
sentence exactly as it would be said by a Frenchman in a French
sentence is a feat demanding an acrobatic mouth..... It is a
feat that should not be attempted."

That's what keeps smashing the train of speech when news reporters
gabble on in English about something happening in the middle east,
and then suddenly throw in a placename pronunced in the language
of the placename and not in the language of the rest of the sentence.
You're talking in English, dammit, it's Bar-rain, not ba'hiccup-rain.

What I hear from reporters sometimes is "Baghrain" where 'gh" represents
a guttural sound (almost choking).

[micky]

On Thu, 27 Feb 2014 08:09:39 -0000, "Guy Barry"

Post by Guy Barry
I keep hearing all sorts of variants of this one. Hans Asperger was
Austrian, so you'd expect his name to be given something approximating to
(ASS-purr-guh), but I sometimes hear it with second-syllable stress as
(a-SPUR-juh). As German doesn't have a soft "g" these can't possibly be
right, but I suspect that some speakers don't realize that it's a German
name.
Add to that the confusion over whether there should be a possessive marker
after the name ("Asperger's syndrome" used to be much more common), and
you've got a bewildering range of options. What do you say?

I think it's an element of Asperger's syndrome to worry too much about
about the pronunciation.

I pronounce it as it would be pronounced in English, which is also the
pronunciation I hear all the time in the US.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by micky
I think it's an element of Asperger's syndrome to worry too much about
about the pronunciation.

I dislike the suggestion that it should be a problem in this
group or a symptom of any disease to pay attention to minute
details about how words and language are treated.

[micky]

On Thu, 27 Feb 2014 21:08:05 +0100, Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by micky
I think it's an element of Asperger's syndrome to worry too much about
about the pronunciation.

I dislike the suggestion that it should be a problem in this
group or a symptom of any disease to pay attention to minute
details about how words and language are treated.

Sorry. The similarity was too good to pass up.

[Guy Barry]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by micky
I think it's an element of Asperger's syndrome to worry too much about
about the pronunciation.

I dislike the suggestion that it should be a problem in this
group or a symptom of any disease to pay attention to minute
details about how words and language are treated.

I agree with the sentiment, but Asperger syndrome is not a disease.

[Guy Barry]

Post by micky
I think it's an element of Asperger's syndrome to worry too much about
about the pronunciation.

I know that's a joke, but I think it's in bad taste for this group. Many of
the threads here discuss alternative pronunciations of words. I know
they're not to everyone's taste but I'm usually careful to put the word
"pronunciation" in the header so that people can avoid them.

Post by micky
I pronounce it as it would be pronounced in English, which is also the
pronunciation I hear all the time in the US.

And how's that? I gave four different pronunciations, all of which use
English phonology. Do you use first or second syllable stress? Do you use
a hard or a soft "g"?

[micky]

Post by micky
On Thu, 27 Feb 2014 08:09:39 -0000, "Guy Barry"

Post by Guy Barry
I keep hearing all sorts of variants of this one. Hans Asperger was
Austrian, so you'd expect his name to be given something approximating to
(ASS-purr-guh), but I sometimes hear it with second-syllable stress as
(a-SPUR-juh). As German doesn't have a soft "g" these can't possibly be
right, but I suspect that some speakers don't realize that it's a German
name.
Add to that the confusion over whether there should be a possessive marker
after the name ("Asperger's syndrome" used to be much more common), and
you've got a bewildering range of options. What do you say?

.....

Post by micky
I pronounce it as it would be pronounced in English, which is also the
pronunciation I hear all the time in the US.

It would be none of those above, because they all end in -uh. Not in
-er.

A hard g, and stress on the first syllable, because that's the way I
always hear it in the US. Like hamburger

[Guy Barry]

Post by micky

Post by micky
On Thu, 27 Feb 2014 08:09:39 -0000, "Guy Barry"

Post by Guy Barry
I keep hearing all sorts of variants of this one. Hans Asperger was
Austrian, so you'd expect his name to be given something approximating to
(ASS-purr-guh), but I sometimes hear it with second-syllable stress as
(a-SPUR-juh). As German doesn't have a soft "g" these can't possibly be
right, but I suspect that some speakers don't realize that it's a German
name.
Add to that the confusion over whether there should be a possessive marker
after the name ("Asperger's syndrome" used to be much more common), and
you've got a bewildering range of options. What do you say?

.....

Post by micky
I pronounce it as it would be pronounced in English, which is also the
pronunciation I hear all the time in the US.

It would be none of those above, because they all end in -uh. Not in
-er.

Well of course, because that's the way final "-er" is regularly pronounced
in BrE. There was some dispute in another thread about what sound the
respelling "er" normally represents in BrE, so I tried to avoid it.

Post by micky
A hard g, and stress on the first syllable, because that's the way I
always hear it in the US. Like hamburger

OK, that's pretty much the way I say it. Thanks.

[Katy Jennison]

A hard g, and stress on the first syllable, because that's the way I
always hear it in the US. Like hamburger

OK, that's pretty much the way I say it. Thanks.

Me too, but I usually have to think twice, because my mental filing
system keeps wanting to link it to "asperge" (sprinkle. eg with holy
water) which has a soft g, and predates "Asperger" in said filing system.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Fri, 28 Feb 2014 11:19:36 +0000, Katy Jennison

Post by Katy Jennison

A hard g, and stress on the first syllable, because that's the way I
always hear it in the US. Like hamburger

OK, that's pretty much the way I say it. Thanks.

Me too, but I usually have to think twice, because my mental filing
system keeps wanting to link it to "asperge" (sprinkle. eg with holy
water) which has a soft g, and predates "Asperger" in said filing system.

asperge: to cast aspergeons/aspergions

[Mike L]

On Fri, 28 Feb 2014 15:19:56 +0000, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Fri, 28 Feb 2014 11:19:36 +0000, Katy Jennison

Post by Katy Jennison

A hard g, and stress on the first syllable, because that's the way I
always hear it in the US. Like hamburger

OK, that's pretty much the way I say it. Thanks.

Me too, but I usually have to think twice, because my mental filing
system keeps wanting to link it to "asperge" (sprinkle. eg with holy
water) which has a soft g, and predates "Asperger" in said filing system.

asperge: to cast aspergeons/aspergions

I once caught an aspergeon. A group of us were netting the Upper
Yenisei to produce a population survey, and since none of the
scientists involved was a fisherman, they tended to look to me in
piscatorial moments beyond the usual biologist's remit. Such as when
one of the silly buggers got himself bitten by a relatively small
cannula. The trouble with these brutes is that once they've taken hold
they don't let go, so there we were, deep in the wilderness, with one
of the world's top ichthyologists jumping up and down swearing like a
good 'un, with an enraged Siberian pseudoperciforme firmly attached to
his right forefinger. Fortunately, I was able to stroke the poor
creature's belly to induce vomiting, and the professor was freed,
albeit with a somewhat shredded digit.

Where was I? ...ah, yes, the big fellow. Well, one morning I was
washing the frying pan in the river, when suddenly there was a
whacking great splash, and a mighty wrench on my arm! Mildly alarming,
I can assure you.

Well, I soon managed to recover my composure, and realised that
something sizable had seen the flash of aluminium in the water and
struck at it ravenously, and, as if repeating the earlier incident,
now refused to release its powerful grip. I was in considerable danger
of losing my footing, but was dashed if I was going to lose our frying
pan, so I dug in my heels and hung on for dear life.

Owing to the fish's entirely excusable thrashing, I was quickly soaked
to the skin with distinctly frosty water. The characteristic purple
dorsal and tail fins appeared at intervals, so I was able to identify
him as one of the extremely rare Yenisei aspergeons. This in itself
posed an additional problem, since the species is very properly
protected, and I was in honour bound not to do him any harm.

I therefore realised I was going to have to sacrifice the frying pan,
and was preparing to release my already tiring grip, when suddenly the
connection was lost, and as I fell over backwards I saw the
magnificent specimen turn like a cat, and vanish with a flick of his
tail into the depths. Leaving me sitting in the icy mud, clutching a
now-useless kitchen utensil pierced with two neat holes, measured
later at three-quarters of an inch across. The watery world's revenge
for all those tasty fry-ups. The chap must have been able to work
himself loose: for my part I have never been so happy to lose a fish.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

Post by Mike L
On Fri, 28 Feb 2014 15:19:56 +0000, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Fri, 28 Feb 2014 11:19:36 +0000, Katy Jennison

Post by Katy Jennison

A hard g, and stress on the first syllable, because that's the way I
always hear it in the US. Like hamburger

OK, that's pretty much the way I say it. Thanks.

Me too, but I usually have to think twice, because my mental filing
system keeps wanting to link it to "asperge" (sprinkle. eg with holy
water) which has a soft g, and predates "Asperger" in said filing system.

asperge: to cast aspergeons/aspergions

I once caught an aspergeon. A group of us were netting the Upper
Yenisei to produce a population survey, and since none of the
scientists involved was a fisherman, they tended to look to me in
piscatorial moments beyond the usual biologist's remit. Such as when
one of the silly buggers got himself bitten by a relatively small
cannula. The trouble with these brutes is that once they've taken hold
they don't let go, so there we were, deep in the wilderness, with one
of the world's top ichthyologists jumping up and down swearing like a
good 'un, with an enraged Siberian pseudoperciforme firmly attached to
his right forefinger. Fortunately, I was able to stroke the poor
creature's belly to induce vomiting, and the professor was freed,
albeit with a somewhat shredded digit.
Where was I? ...ah, yes, the big fellow. Well, one morning I was
washing the frying pan in the river, when suddenly there was a
whacking great splash, and a mighty wrench on my arm! Mildly alarming,
I can assure you.
Well, I soon managed to recover my composure, and realised that
something sizable had seen the flash of aluminium in the water and
struck at it ravenously, and, as if repeating the earlier incident,
now refused to release its powerful grip. I was in considerable danger
of losing my footing, but was dashed if I was going to lose our frying
pan, so I dug in my heels and hung on for dear life.
Owing to the fish's entirely excusable thrashing, I was quickly soaked
to the skin with distinctly frosty water. The characteristic purple
dorsal and tail fins appeared at intervals, so I was able to identify
him as one of the extremely rare Yenisei aspergeons. This in itself
posed an additional problem, since the species is very properly
protected, and I was in honour bound not to do him any harm.
I therefore realised I was going to have to sacrifice the frying pan,
and was preparing to release my already tiring grip, when suddenly the
connection was lost, and as I fell over backwards I saw the
magnificent specimen turn like a cat, and vanish with a flick of his
tail into the depths. Leaving me sitting in the icy mud, clutching a
now-useless kitchen utensil pierced with two neat holes, measured
later at three-quarters of an inch across. The watery world's revenge
for all those tasty fry-ups. The chap must have been able to work
himself loose: for my part I have never been so happy to lose a fish.

How excellent that both the extremely rare Yenisei aspergeon and the
totally unique Mike Lyle survived to tell the tale.

[James Hogg]

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by Mike L
On Fri, 28 Feb 2014 15:19:56 +0000, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Fri, 28 Feb 2014 11:19:36 +0000, Katy Jennison

Post by Katy Jennison

A hard g, and stress on the first syllable, because that's the way I
always hear it in the US. Like hamburger

OK, that's pretty much the way I say it. Thanks.

Me too, but I usually have to think twice, because my mental filing
system keeps wanting to link it to "asperge" (sprinkle. eg with holy
water) which has a soft g, and predates "Asperger" in said filing system.

asperge: to cast aspergeons/aspergions

I once caught an aspergeon. A group of us were netting the Upper
Yenisei to produce a population survey, and since none of the
scientists involved was a fisherman, they tended to look to me in
piscatorial moments beyond the usual biologist's remit. Such as when
one of the silly buggers got himself bitten by a relatively small
cannula. The trouble with these brutes is that once they've taken hold
they don't let go, so there we were, deep in the wilderness, with one
of the world's top ichthyologists jumping up and down swearing like a
good 'un, with an enraged Siberian pseudoperciforme firmly attached to
his right forefinger. Fortunately, I was able to stroke the poor
creature's belly to induce vomiting, and the professor was freed,
albeit with a somewhat shredded digit.
Where was I? ...ah, yes, the big fellow. Well, one morning I was
washing the frying pan in the river, when suddenly there was a
whacking great splash, and a mighty wrench on my arm! Mildly alarming,
I can assure you.
Well, I soon managed to recover my composure, and realised that
something sizable had seen the flash of aluminium in the water and
struck at it ravenously, and, as if repeating the earlier incident,
now refused to release its powerful grip. I was in considerable danger
of losing my footing, but was dashed if I was going to lose our frying
pan, so I dug in my heels and hung on for dear life.
Owing to the fish's entirely excusable thrashing, I was quickly soaked
to the skin with distinctly frosty water. The characteristic purple
dorsal and tail fins appeared at intervals, so I was able to identify
him as one of the extremely rare Yenisei aspergeons. This in itself
posed an additional problem, since the species is very properly
protected, and I was in honour bound not to do him any harm.
I therefore realised I was going to have to sacrifice the frying pan,
and was preparing to release my already tiring grip, when suddenly the
connection was lost, and as I fell over backwards I saw the
magnificent specimen turn like a cat, and vanish with a flick of his
tail into the depths. Leaving me sitting in the icy mud, clutching a
now-useless kitchen utensil pierced with two neat holes, measured
later at three-quarters of an inch across. The watery world's revenge
for all those tasty fry-ups. The chap must have been able to work
himself loose: for my part I have never been so happy to lose a fish.

How excellent that both the extremely rare Yenisei aspergeon and the
totally unique Mike Lyle survived to tell the tale.

I hope to see these ripping yarns collected in book form in due course.

[CDB]

[Samuel Butler asperged a Spurgeon once]

Post by James Hogg

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by Mike L
I once caught an aspergeon. A group of us were netting the Upper
Yenisei to produce a population survey, and since none of the
scientists involved was a fisherman, they tended to look to me
in piscatorial moments beyond the usual biologist's remit. Such
as when one of the silly buggers got himself bitten by a
relatively small cannula. The trouble with these brutes is that
once they've taken hold they don't let go, so there we were, deep
in the wilderness, with one of the world's top ichthyologists
jumping up and down swearing like a good 'un, with an enraged
Siberian pseudoperciforme firmly attached to his right
forefinger. Fortunately, I was able to stroke the poor creature's
belly to induce vomiting, and the professor was freed, albeit
with a somewhat shredded digit. Where was I? ...ah, yes, the big
fellow. Well, one morning I was washing the frying pan in the
river, when suddenly there was a whacking great splash, and a
mighty wrench on my arm! Mildly alarming, I can assure you. Well,
I soon managed to recover my composure, and realised that
something sizable had seen the flash of aluminium in the water
and struck at it ravenously, and, as if repeating the earlier
incident, now refused to release its powerful grip. I was in
considerable danger of losing my footing, but was dashed if I was
going to lose our frying pan, so I dug in my heels and hung on
for dear life. Owing to the fish's entirely excusable thrashing,
I was quickly soaked to the skin with distinctly frosty water.
The characteristic purple dorsal and tail fins appeared at
intervals, so I was able to identify him as one of the extremely
rare Yenisei aspergeons. This in itself posed an additional
problem, since the species is very properly protected, and I was
in honour bound not to do him any harm. I therefore realised I
was going to have to sacrifice the frying pan, and was preparing
to release my already tiring grip, when suddenly the connection
was lost, and as I fell over backwards I saw the magnificent
specimen turn like a cat, and vanish with a flick of his tail
into the depths. Leaving me sitting in the icy mud, clutching a
now-useless kitchen utensil pierced with two neat holes,
measured later at three-quarters of an inch across. The watery
world's revenge for all those tasty fry-ups. The chap must have
been able to work himself loose: for my part I have never been so
happy to lose a fish.

How excellent that both the extremely rare Yenisei aspergeon and
the totally unique Mike Lyle survived to tell the tale.

I hope to see these ripping yarns collected in book form in due course.

ASSAOU.

[Mike L]

Post by CDB
[Samuel Butler asperged a Spurgeon once]

Post by James Hogg

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by Mike L
I once caught an aspergeon. A group of us were netting the Upper
Yenisei to produce a population survey, and since none of the
scientists involved was a fisherman, they tended to look to me
in piscatorial moments beyond the usual biologist's remit. Such
as when one of the silly buggers got himself bitten by a
relatively small cannula. The trouble with these brutes is that
once they've taken hold they don't let go, so there we were, deep
in the wilderness, with one of the world's top ichthyologists
jumping up and down swearing like a good 'un, with an enraged
Siberian pseudoperciforme firmly attached to his right
forefinger. Fortunately, I was able to stroke the poor creature's
belly to induce vomiting, and the professor was freed, albeit
with a somewhat shredded digit. Where was I? ...ah, yes, the big
fellow. Well, one morning I was washing the frying pan in the
river, when suddenly there was a whacking great splash, and a
mighty wrench on my arm! Mildly alarming, I can assure you. Well,
I soon managed to recover my composure, and realised that
something sizable had seen the flash of aluminium in the water
and struck at it ravenously, and, as if repeating the earlier
incident, now refused to release its powerful grip. I was in
considerable danger of losing my footing, but was dashed if I was
going to lose our frying pan, so I dug in my heels and hung on
for dear life. Owing to the fish's entirely excusable thrashing,
I was quickly soaked to the skin with distinctly frosty water.
The characteristic purple dorsal and tail fins appeared at
intervals, so I was able to identify him as one of the extremely
rare Yenisei aspergeons. This in itself posed an additional
problem, since the species is very properly protected, and I was
in honour bound not to do him any harm. I therefore realised I
was going to have to sacrifice the frying pan, and was preparing
to release my already tiring grip, when suddenly the connection
was lost, and as I fell over backwards I saw the magnificent
specimen turn like a cat, and vanish with a flick of his tail
into the depths. Leaving me sitting in the icy mud, clutching a
now-useless kitchen utensil pierced with two neat holes,
measured later at three-quarters of an inch across. The watery
world's revenge for all those tasty fry-ups. The chap must have
been able to work himself loose: for my part I have never been so
happy to lose a fish.

How excellent that both the extremely rare Yenisei aspergeon and
the totally unique Mike Lyle survived to tell the tale.

I hope to see these ripping yarns collected in book form in due course.

ASSAOU.

<Gruffly> Dashed kind of you fellers, just the odd little things that
happen to one, don't ye know?

Editor's note: such of these memories of field and stream as survive
at all lie buried in the archives of our American friends, Messrs
Google. It would therefore be no mean task to recover the originals.

[Robert Bannister]

Post by micky

Post by micky
On Thu, 27 Feb 2014 08:09:39 -0000, "Guy Barry"

Post by Guy Barry
I keep hearing all sorts of variants of this one. Hans Asperger was
Austrian, so you'd expect his name to be given something approximating to
(ASS-purr-guh), but I sometimes hear it with second-syllable stress as
(a-SPUR-juh). As German doesn't have a soft "g" these can't possibly be
right, but I suspect that some speakers don't realize that it's a German
name.
Add to that the confusion over whether there should be a possessive marker
after the name ("Asperger's syndrome" used to be much more common), and
you've got a bewildering range of options. What do you say?

.....

Post by micky
I pronounce it as it would be pronounced in English, which is also the
pronunciation I hear all the time in the US.

It would be none of those above, because they all end in -uh. Not in
-er.
A hard g, and stress on the first syllable, because that's the way I
always hear it in the US. Like hamburger

So you don't mean "as it would be pronounced in English". You mean the
way it is pronounced by US radio and TV jocks. These are well-known for
getting foreign pronunciations correct.

[Guy Barry]

Post by micky
A hard g, and stress on the first syllable, because that's the way I
always hear it in the US. Like hamburger

So you don't mean "as it would be pronounced in English". You mean the way
it is pronounced by US radio and TV jocks. These are well-known for getting
foreign pronunciations correct.

Well, they seem to have got that one right, even if only by a fluke. Better
than the multiplicity of pronunciations that I hear in this country.

[Robert Bannister]

Post by Guy Barry
I keep hearing all sorts of variants of this one. Hans Asperger was
Austrian, so you'd expect his name to be given something approximating
(ASS-purr-guh), but I sometimes hear it with second-syllable stress as
(a-SPUR-juh). As German doesn't have a soft "g" these can't possibly be
right, but I suspect that some speakers don't realize that it's a German
name.
Add to that the confusion over whether there should be a possessive
marker after the name ("Asperger's syndrome" used to be much more
common), and you've got a bewildering range of options. What do you say?

"Asperger" doesn't "look" German enough. In fact, it looks more like
asparagus. Of course, if he had changed his name to "Spargel", things
might have been different.

[Leslie Danks]

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Guy Barry
I keep hearing all sorts of variants of this one. Hans Asperger was
Austrian, so you'd expect his name to be given something
(ASS-pair-guh); but I don't
(ASS-purr-guh), but I sometimes hear it with second-syllable stress
the
(a-SPUR-juh). As German doesn't have a soft "g" these can't possibly
be right, but I suspect that some speakers don't realize that it's a
German name.
Add to that the confusion over whether there should be a possessive
marker after the name ("Asperger's syndrome" used to be much more
common), and you've got a bewildering range of options. What do you say?

"Asperger" doesn't "look" German enough. In fact, it looks more like
asparagus. Of course, if he had changed his name to "Spargel", things
might have been different.

It might have changed his life. He could have made a fortune selling
stuff that enabled people to shower cheaply.

[Don Phillipson]

Post by Guy Barry
I keep hearing all sorts of variants of this one. Hans Asperger was
Austrian, so you'd expect his name to be . . .
Add to that the confusion over whether there should be a possessive marker
after the name ("Asperger's syndrome" used to be much more common), and
you've got a bewildering range of options. What do you say?

This newish coinage has probably passed the point of divergence into
two idiolects, technical/medical and popular/journalistic.

The simplest example is AIDS = Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome,
thus named since it was a combination of symptoms of various etiologies:
but popular usage has since agreed that AIDS names a particular
infection or disease. Many doctors seem to have taken up this
usage as well, viz. consider AIDS a (multivalent) disease rather
than a bundle of symptoms viz. syndrome.

[Whiskers]

Post by Guy Barry
I keep hearing all sorts of variants of this one. Hans Asperger was
Austrian, so you'd expect his name to be given something approximating to
(ASS-purr-guh), but I sometimes hear it with second-syllable stress as
(a-SPUR-juh). As German doesn't have a soft "g" these can't possibly be
right, but I suspect that some speakers don't realize that it's a German
name.
Add to that the confusion over whether there should be a possessive marker
after the name ("Asperger's syndrome" used to be much more common), and
you've got a bewildering range of options. What do you say?

Is engaging in this discussion eponymously diagnostic?

This morning I heard a radio programme about "Asperger's [syndrome]" and
its entry in DSM4 and in the draught of DSM5. I think all possible
pronunciations occurred, some speakers using more than one, and the
"syndrome" part hardly got a look-in.

I think the general feeling was that it doesn't actually exist as a
distinct disorder or illness, or at least that the diagnostic
indications ascribed to it are far too easily imagined, or mistaken for
personality or behaviour variations that are within the "normal" range
(whatever that means!). Someone suggested that the term has become
almost synonymous with "[being] male", and is part of a recent tendency
for mental health practitioners to pathologize normality which DSM5 may
seek to redress.

So we could be relieved of the associated phenomenon of "Pronouncing
Asperger's Anxiety".

[Guy Barry]

Post by Whiskers
Is engaging in this discussion eponymously diagnostic?

No. Why do people keep asking that? It's a question about English usage,
which is the subject of this group.

Post by Whiskers
This morning I heard a radio programme about "Asperger's [syndrome]" and
its entry in DSM4 and in the draught of DSM5. I think all possible
pronunciations occurred, some speakers using more than one, and the
"syndrome" part hardly got a look-in.
I think the general feeling was that it doesn't actually exist as a
distinct disorder or illness, or at least that the diagnostic
indications ascribed to it are far too easily imagined, or mistaken for
personality or behaviour variations that are within the "normal" range
(whatever that means!). Someone suggested that the term has become
almost synonymous with "[being] male", and is part of a recent tendency
for mental health practitioners to pathologize normality which DSM5 may
seek to redress.

I know people with Asperger syndrome, both male and female, and I can
usually recognize it when I see it. I noted the programme you mention
though I haven't had a chance to listen to it yet. It should be
interesting.

[Cheryl]

Post by Guy Barry

Post by Whiskers
Is engaging in this discussion eponymously diagnostic?

No. Why do people keep asking that? It's a question about English
usage, which is the subject of this group.

Post by Whiskers
This morning I heard a radio programme about "Asperger's [syndrome]" and
its entry in DSM4 and in the draught of DSM5. I think all possible
pronunciations occurred, some speakers using more than one, and the
"syndrome" part hardly got a look-in.
I think the general feeling was that it doesn't actually exist as a
distinct disorder or illness, or at least that the diagnostic
indications ascribed to it are far too easily imagined, or mistaken for
personality or behaviour variations that are within the "normal" range
(whatever that means!). Someone suggested that the term has become
almost synonymous with "[being] male", and is part of a recent tendency
for mental health practitioners to pathologize normality which DSM5 may
seek to redress.

I know people with Asperger syndrome, both male and female, and I can
usually recognize it when I see it. I noted the programme you mention
though I haven't had a chance to listen to it yet. It should be
interesting.

One of the side-effects of broadening the criteria for diagnosis, if
that's what's happening, is that you can get situations described to me
by one mother of someone with Asperger's Syndrome as 'programs set up
for people with Asperger's syndrome which won't take people who have too
many of the classical symptoms of Asperger's Syndrome'.

[Whiskers]

Post by Cheryl

Post by Guy Barry

Post by Whiskers
Is engaging in this discussion eponymously diagnostic?

No. Why do people keep asking that? It's a question about English
usage, which is the subject of this group.

Post by Whiskers
This morning I heard a radio programme about "Asperger's [syndrome]"
and its entry in DSM4 and in the draught of DSM5. I think all
possible pronunciations occurred, some speakers using more than one,
and the "syndrome" part hardly got a look-in.
I think the general feeling was that it doesn't actually exist as a
distinct disorder or illness, or at least that the diagnostic
indications ascribed to it are far too easily imagined, or mistaken
for personality or behaviour variations that are within the "normal"
range (whatever that means!). Someone suggested that the term has
become almost synonymous with "[being] male", and is part of a
recent tendency for mental health practitioners to pathologize
normality which DSM5 may seek to redress.

I know people with Asperger syndrome, both male and female, and I can
usually recognize it when I see it. I noted the programme you
mention though I haven't had a chance to listen to it yet. It should
be interesting.

One of the side-effects of broadening the criteria for diagnosis, if
that's what's happening, is that you can get situations described to
me by one mother of someone with Asperger's Syndrome as 'programs set
up for people with Asperger's syndrome which won't take people who
have too many of the classical symptoms of Asperger's Syndrome'.

Which supports the latest thinking (DSM5) that "Asperger's" should be
re-classified as "high functioning autism". Programs for 'people with
Aspergers but not too many of the classical symptoms' will have to be
re-classified as 'programs for people who aren't actually autistic'.

Being shy or reticent or particularly enthusiastic about something most
kids aren't, or grumpy, or more intelligent than the school-teachers,
isn't a disorder - although it may be inconvenient for other people
sometimes.

[David Kleinecke]

Post by Whiskers

Post by Cheryl

Post by Guy Barry

Post by Whiskers
This morning I heard a radio programme about "Asperger's [syndrome]"
and its entry in DSM4 and in the draught of DSM5. I think all
possible pronunciations occurred, some speakers using more than one,
and the "syndrome" part hardly got a look-in.
I think the general feeling was that it doesn't actually exist as a
distinct disorder or illness, or at least that the diagnostic
indications ascribed to it are far too easily imagined, or mistaken
for personality or behaviour variations that are within the "normal"
range (whatever that means!). Someone suggested that the term has
become almost synonymous with "[being] male", and is part of a
recent tendency for mental health practitioners to pathologize
normality which DSM5 may seek to redress.

I know people with Asperger syndrome, both male and female, and I can
usually recognize it when I see it. I noted the programme you
mention though I haven't had a chance to listen to it yet. It should
be interesting.

One of the side-effects of broadening the criteria for diagnosis, if
that's what's happening, is that you can get situations described to
me by one mother of someone with Asperger's Syndrome as 'programs set
up for people with Asperger's syndrome which won't take people who
have too many of the classical symptoms of Asperger's Syndrome'.

Which supports the latest thinking (DSM5) that "Asperger's" should be
re-classified as "high functioning autism". Programs for 'people with
Aspergers but not too many of the classical symptoms' will have to be
re-classified as 'programs for people who aren't actually autistic'.
Being shy or reticent or particularly enthusiastic about something most
kids aren't, or grumpy, or more intelligent than the school-teachers,
isn't a disorder - although it may be inconvenient for other people
sometimes.

As someone with a deep personal interest in these things I have concluded
that this is spectrum matter. That is, there is no dividing line between
autism (should be called Kanner's) and Asperger's and none between
Asperger's and "normality" (assuming such a thing exists). I know a
large number of people whom I suspect of unsuspected Asperger's - it seems
to be very common. But is is real? Classical Kanner's Syndrome is quite
real and quite rare. I think that, before Asperger's was formulated, many
people who would now be thought of as having Asperger's were considered
"autistic" (for want of a better label).

As you might suspect I think the "word" autism should be retired.

[R H Draney]

Post by David Kleinecke
I know a
large number of people whom I suspect of unsuspected Asperger's

Now *there's* a neat trick....r

[fabzorba]

David Kleinecke filted: > >I know a >large number of people whom I suspect of unsuspected Asperger's Now *there's* a neat trick....

Perhaps David meant "undiagnosed"?

[David Kleinecke]

Post by fabzorba

David Kleinecke filted: > >I know a >large number of people whom I suspect of unsuspected Asperger's Now *there's* a neat trick....

Perhaps David meant "undiagnosed"?

Word play, guys, blatant word play.

In case anyone remains confused: There are lots of people in my private life and in public life whom nobody (one exception) has ever imagined to be Aspberger's people. The exception is me.

[Whiskers]

[...]

Post by David Kleinecke
As someone with a deep personal interest in these things I have
concluded that this is spectrum matter. That is, there is no dividing
line between autism (should be called Kanner's) and Asperger's and
none between Asperger's and "normality" (assuming such a thing
exists).

As in so many aspects of reality, I suspect there are many spectra
involved in human behaviour, development, and abilities. "Autism" would
then be a coincidence of one person finding themselves at particular
points or ranges on some of those spectra.

Post by David Kleinecke
I know a large number of people whom I suspect of unsuspected
Asperger's - it seems to be very common. But is is real? Classical
Kanner's Syndrome is quite real and quite rare. I think that, before
Asperger's was formulated, many people who would now be thought of as
having Asperger's were considered "autistic" (for want of a better
label).

Humans do seem to like giving names to things, even when they don't fit.

The term "autism" was coined by Bleuler in 1910 to describe aspects of
"schizophrenia". Asperger adopted the term "autistic psychopath" in a
talk about child development in 1938, and Kanner used "early infantile
autism" in a paper in 1943. Diagnoses of "autism" as a specific
syndrome or disorder didn't begin till the 1960s, and "Asperger's
syndrome" as a distinct diagnosis dates from the 1980s.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Autism&oldid=598053764>
(used as a useful compendium of references rather than as a prime
source).

Post by David Kleinecke
As you might suspect I think the "word" autism should be retired.

I tend to agree.

[fabzorba]

I think all possible pronunciations occurred, some speakers using more than one, and the "syndrome" part hardly got a look-in.

As a practitioner of the quintessentially English game "Oh really?"
(no other nation or race would appreciate its charms)
I ALWAYS refer to it as "asparagus syndrome".
Thus, when I am corrected, I simply say "Oh really?"

People might think I am a dope, but deep down I know different.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.usage.english/abzorba$20oh$20really/alt.usage.english/KNqh9hJ4F50/ehDBbxvd_84J

Try it out by penning such bon mots as "pretty English lassos".

It's ever so much fun.

[Whiskers]

Post by fabzorba

I think all possible pronunciations occurred, some speakers using more
than one, and the "syndrome" part hardly got a look-in.

As a practitioner of the quintessentially English game "Oh really?"
(no other nation or race would appreciate its charms) I ALWAYS refer
to it as "asparagus syndrome". Thus, when I am corrected, I simply
say "Oh really?"
People might think I am a dope, but deep down I know different.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.usage.english/abzorba$20oh$20really/alt.usage.english/KNqh9hJ4F50/ehDBbxvd_84J
Try it out by penning such bon mots as "pretty English lassos".
It's ever so much fun.

Played orally or aurally. See also the O'Reilly variant.

[R H Draney]

Post by Whiskers

Post by fabzorba

I think all possible pronunciations occurred, some speakers using more
than one, and the "syndrome" part hardly got a look-in.

As a practitioner of the quintessentially English game "Oh really?"
(no other nation or race would appreciate its charms) I ALWAYS refer
to it as "asparagus syndrome". Thus, when I am corrected, I simply
say "Oh really?"
People might think I am a dope, but deep down I know different.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.usage.english/abzorba$20oh$20really/alt.usage.english/KNqh9hJ4F50/ehDBbxvd_84J
Try it out by penning such bon mots as "pretty English lassos".
It's ever so much fun.

Played orally or aurally. See also the O'Reilly variant.

Recorded by Elvis as "Love Me Tender"....r

[Whiskers]

Post by R H Draney

Post by Whiskers

Post by fabzorba

I think all possible pronunciations occurred, some speakers using more
than one, and the "syndrome" part hardly got a look-in.

As a practitioner of the quintessentially English game "Oh really?"
(no other nation or race would appreciate its charms) I ALWAYS refer
to it as "asparagus syndrome". Thus, when I am corrected, I simply
say "Oh really?"
People might think I am a dope, but deep down I know different.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.usage.english/abzorba$20oh$20really/alt.usage.english/KNqh9hJ4F50/ehDBbxvd_84J
Try it out by penning such bon mots as "pretty English lassos".
It's ever so much fun.

Played orally or aurally. See also the O'Reilly variant.

Recorded by Elvis as "Love Me Tender"....r

Ouch!