Nobody but me

[DianeE]

The other day I said "Nobody but me noticed the error."

Then I thought, "That sounds wrong. It sounds like it ought to be 'Nobody
but *I* noticed the error.' "

But that sounded even more wrong.

The practical solution to the problem, I realize, is "Nobody, except me,
noticed the error," but I remain unsure over what should follow "Nobody
but."

Thanx DianeE

[John Holmes]

Post by DianeE
The other day I said "Nobody but me noticed the error."
Then I thought, "That sounds wrong. It sounds like it ought to be
'Nobody but *I* noticed the error.' "
But that sounded even more wrong.
The practical solution to the problem, I realize, is "Nobody, except
me, noticed the error," but I remain unsure over what should follow
"Nobody but."

You were right the first time: "me".

[Skitt]

Post by John Holmes

Post by DianeE
The other day I said "Nobody but me noticed the error."
Then I thought, "That sounds wrong. It sounds like it ought to be
'Nobody but *I* noticed the error.' "
But that sounded even more wrong.
The practical solution to the problem, I realize, is "Nobody, except
me, noticed the error," but I remain unsure over what should follow
"Nobody but."

You were right the first time: "me".

I'd say, "I was the only one to notice the error."

[Marius Hancu]

I think all these four combinations would work.
(first you have the Yahoo hits, then the hits in the classical
literature)

188,000 hits for "No one but me"
12 from literaturepost.com for "No one but me"

42,500 for "No one but I"
8 from literaturepost.com for "No one but I"

211,000 for "Nobody but me"
19 from literaturepost.com for "Nobody but me"

52,000 for "Nobody but I"
7 from literaturepost.com for "Nobody but I"

As you can see, the "I" versions are in lesser use, and see pretentious
to some these days.

Marius Hancu

[Raymond S. Wise]

Post by Marius Hancu
I think all these four combinations would work.
(first you have the Yahoo hits, then the hits in the classical
literature)
188,000 hits for "No one but me"
12 from literaturepost.com for "No one but me"
42,500 for "No one but I"
8 from literaturepost.com for "No one but I"
211,000 for "Nobody but me"
19 from literaturepost.com for "Nobody but me"
52,000 for "Nobody but I"
7 from literaturepost.com for "Nobody but I"
As you can see, the "I" versions are in lesser use, and see pretentious
to some these days.

The implication of that "see[m] pretentious to some" is that "Nobody
but I" would have been considered correct in traditional grammar. Since
"but," meaning "except for," is a preposition, the following pronoun
must be in the objective form (unless it is itself the subject of a
clause, which is not the case here) if going by the traditional rules.
That is, traditionally, the only correct form would have been "Nobody
but me."

"Nobody but I" is like "between you and I," then, in being originally
the result of hypercorrection.


--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

[Raymond S. Wise]

Post by Raymond S. Wise

Post by Marius Hancu
I think all these four combinations would work.
(first you have the Yahoo hits, then the hits in the classical
literature)
188,000 hits for "No one but me"
12 from literaturepost.com for "No one but me"
42,500 for "No one but I"
8 from literaturepost.com for "No one but I"
211,000 for "Nobody but me"
19 from literaturepost.com for "Nobody but me"
52,000 for "Nobody but I"
7 from literaturepost.com for "Nobody but I"
As you can see, the "I" versions are in lesser use, and see pretentious
to some these days.

The implication of that "see[m] pretentious to some" is that "Nobody
but I" would have been considered correct in traditional grammar. Since
"but," meaning "except for," is a preposition, the following pronoun
must be in the objective form (unless it is itself the subject of a
clause, which is not the case here) if going by the traditional rules.
That is, traditionally, the only correct form would have been "Nobody
but me."
"Nobody but I" is like "between you and I," then, in being originally
the result of hypercorrection.

I took a look at the hits from literaturepost.com . Three of the seven
hits for "Nobody but I" were cases where "I" was the subject of a
clause:

In *The Journal to Stella* by Jonathan Swift:

"I went to the Drawing-room before dinner (for the Queen was at Hampton
Court), and expected to see nobody; but I met acquaintance enough."

In *The History of Mr. Polly* by H.G. Wells:

"I'm just a nobody. But I know you are the best and most beautiful
thing I've ever spoken to."

In *The Portrait of a Lady,* Vol. 1, by Henry James

"I suppose it's the right way to feel everywhere, when one IS nobody.
But I like it in a church as little as anywhere else."


--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

[Raymond S. Wise]

Raymond S. Wise wrote:

[...]

Post by Raymond S. Wise
I took a look at the hits from literaturepost.com . Three of the seven
hits for "Nobody but I" were cases where "I" was the subject of a
"I went to the Drawing-room before dinner (for the Queen was at Hampton
Court), and expected to see nobody; but I met acquaintance enough."
"I'm just a nobody. But I know you are the best and most beautiful
thing I've ever spoken to."
In *The Portrait of a Lady,* Vol. 1, by Henry James
"I suppose it's the right way to feel everywhere, when one IS nobody.
But I like it in a church as little as anywhere else."

I was surprised to see that AHD4, in a usage note for "but" as a
preposition, says that some traditional grammarians have argued that
"but" in "Nobody but I," where Nobody" is the subject of a clause or
sentence, is a conjunction.

See http://www.bartleby.com/61/71/B0577100.html


--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

[Marius Hancu]

Post by Raymond S. Wise
I was surprised to see that AHD4, in a usage note for "but" as a
preposition, says that some traditional grammarians have argued that
"but" in "Nobody but I," where Nobody" is the subject of a clause or
sentence, is a conjunction.
See http://www.bartleby.com/61/71/B0577100.html

Interesting reference.

This, to me, seems that there _were_ some traditional grammarians (I
mean professionals) arguing in favor of "Nobody but I," isn't it?

Marius Hancu

[Skitt]

Post by Marius Hancu

Post by Raymond S. Wise
I was surprised to see that AHD4, in a usage note for "but" as a
preposition, says that some traditional grammarians have argued that
"but" in "Nobody but I," where Nobody" is the subject of a clause or
sentence, is a conjunction.
See http://www.bartleby.com/61/71/B0577100.html

Interesting reference.
This, to me, seems that there _were_ some traditional grammarians (I
mean professionals) arguing in favor of "Nobody but I," isn't it?

Right, but they are few.

See also http://www.bartleby.com/64/C001/052.html

[Donna Richoux]

Post by Marius Hancu
I think all these four combinations would work.
(first you have the Yahoo hits, then the hits in the classical
literature)
188,000 hits for "No one but me"
12 from literaturepost.com for "No one but me"
42,500 for "No one but I"
8 from literaturepost.com for "No one but I"
211,000 for "Nobody but me"
19 from literaturepost.com for "Nobody but me"
52,000 for "Nobody but I"
7 from literaturepost.com for "Nobody but I"

However, you appear to have overlooked entirely the subject/object role.
Literaturepost shows both of these, for example:

(subject) Nobody but I shall come near you to-day

(object) the strange man looked at nobody but me

The capital N in your quotes contributes to the mistaken impression.
None of these search engines can identify capital letters.

Post by Marius Hancu
As you can see, the "I" versions are in lesser use, and see pretentious
to some these days.

I agree with that -- post-WWII, it sounded nearly unbearable for
Americans to say "I" in constructions like "Nobody but I" and "It is I."

[Richard Maurer]

Donna Richoux wrote:
I agree with that -- post-WWII, it sounded
early unbearable for Americans to say "I" in
constructions like "Nobody but I" and "It is I."



And "I, too". It is "Me too", when used at all.
Both are avoided in higher registers.

-- ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

[Eric Walker]

Post by Donna Richoux
I agree with that -- post-WWII, it sounded
early unbearable for Americans to say "I" in
constructions like "Nobody but I" and "It is I."
And "I, too". It is "Me too", when used at all.
Both are avoided in higher registers.

As noted elsewhere, "nobody but I" sounds unbearable exactly because it
*is* wrong. "It is I" is correct, and its bearability seems highly
subjective; but any unbearability is largely irrelevant, owing to
availability of the words "I am". "Me, too" can, I'd reckon, be used
in any register if used rightly.

"I want a holiday," said James.

"I, too, want a holiday," said Sara; "In fact, I need one."

"Me, too," remarked Elaine.

Elaine's grammar is just as good as Sara's. (Elaine can be thought of
as, in effect, saying "Give one to me, too," or "include me in that
thought, too.")

[Richard Maurer]

Donna Richoux wrote:
I agree with that -- post-WWII, it sounded
early unbearable for Americans to say "I" in
constructions like "Nobody but I" and "It is I."


Richard Maurer wrote:
And "I, too". It is "Me too", when used at all.
Both are avoided in higher registers.


Eric Walker wrote about the acceptability of:
"I, too, want a holiday," said Sara;
"In fact, I need one."



Yes, that is barely tolerable.
Most 'Sara's would say
"I want a holiday too."

It is the bare
"I, too"
that is not done at all.
It does not work to expand it to
"I do too"
for that sounds like the petulant expression.

-- ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

[Sara Lorimer]

Post by Richard Maurer
Yes, that is barely tolerable.
Most 'Sara's would say
"I want a holiday too."

Nine out of ten Saras agree: it's time for a vacation.

[Eric Walker]

Richard Maurer wrote:

[...]

Post by Eric Walker
"I, too, want a holiday," said Sara;
"In fact, I need one."
Yes, that is barely tolerable.
Most 'Sara's would say
"I want a holiday too."

It's interesting that a construction that is barely tolerable turns up
almost eleven million Google hits. Granted, as is almost always the
case in phrase searches, some are spurious ("Am I too old to learn a
language?"), but a quick scan of the first results page suggests that
many, probably most, are real.

I also suspect that most Saras would rather be clear about their
meaning, and so would place the word where its function is clear,
instead of appending it in a way that makes it unclear, absent definite
context, whether they mean that they, as well as someone else, want a
holiday or mean that they want a holiday in addition to something else.

[Richard Maurer]

Eric Walker wrote about the acceptability of:
"I, too, want a holiday," said Sara;
"In fact, I need one."



Yes, that is barely tolerable.
Most 'Sara's would say
"I want a holiday too."


Eric Walker wrote:
It's interesting that a construction that is
barely tolerable turns up almost eleven million
Google hits. Granted, as is almost always the case
in phrase searches, some are spurious
("Am I too old to learn a language?"), but a quick
scan of the first results page suggests that many,
probably most, are real.



You are right, there are millions of hits, and
presumably millions of people say it or write it.
But I don't say it. (I was afraid that I would hear
myself say it soon after writing the above excerpt,
and perhaps the right opportunity may still
present itself.) Perhaps it is regional. Or perhaps
it is said in more formal settings, as when one
stands up after being recognized by the chair
at a large meeting, but not said when among friends.
Maybe it is both regional and formal.

-- ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

[Eric Walker]

Post by DianeE
The other day I said "Nobody but me noticed the error."
Then I thought, "That sounds wrong. It sounds like it ought to be 'Nobody
but *I* noticed the error.' "
But that sounded even more wrong.
The practical solution to the problem, I realize, is "Nobody, except me,
noticed the error," but I remain unsure over what should follow "Nobody
but."

It's not a fully settled point. The poster child for the problem is
that mighty literateur Mrs. Felicia Hemans and her _Casabianca_, with
its dreadful line "The boy stood on the burning deck whence all but he
had fled." As Wilson Follett engagingly put it:

"To the reader whose equipment is restricted to mere common sense such
a _but_ seems plainly a preposition meaning _except_ and therefore
logically and grammatically to be followed by _him_, not _he_. But the
dictionaries see it otherwise. . . ."

Eliding the full quotations from and discussion of each dictionary he
cites, the gravamen is that some insist on interpreting that _but_ as a
conjunction, thus to be followed by a pronoun in the nominative case.
Now the old saying that the shortest words make the longest problems
has much truth, and _but_ can at times be tricky to pin down as this or
that part of speech.

If, however, we consider this particular construction, we see that the
conjunctive school is asking us to read the thing as, in effect,
"whence all had fled but he had not fled". (Follett's article on the
point includes many further illustrative examples of interest that I
will skip.)

The crux is, as he points out, that that interpretation is not merely
one of grammatical artifice but one that changes the very meaning of
the subject "but". If one says "Nobody came but I/me", the meaning of
that _but_ is clearly "with the exception of_; but insist that it
expand out into "Nobody came but I came" or the like and you convert
the _but_ into an adversative conjunction signifying "on the contraray,
on the other hand", a decidedly nontrivial alteration in sense.

I have never run across any suggestion of why persons who seem able to
feed and dress themselves without assistance regularly undertake
imitations of the famous Laocoon statue in attempts to make Mrs.
Hemans, apparently the Joyce Kilmer of her day, seem correct on this
point.

[DianeE]

Post by Eric Walker

Post by DianeE
The other day I said "Nobody but me noticed the error."
Then I thought, "That sounds wrong. It sounds like it ought to be 'Nobody
but *I* noticed the error.' "
But that sounded even more wrong.
The practical solution to the problem, I realize, is "Nobody, except me,
noticed the error," but I remain unsure over what should follow "Nobody
but."

It's not a fully settled point. The poster child for the problem is
that mighty literateur Mrs. Felicia Hemans and her _Casabianca_, with
its dreadful line "The boy stood on the burning deck whence all but he
"To the reader whose equipment is restricted to mere common sense such
a _but_ seems plainly a preposition meaning _except_ and therefore
logically and grammatically to be followed by _him_, not _he_. But the
dictionaries see it otherwise. . . ."
Eliding the full quotations from and discussion of each dictionary he
cites, the gravamen is that some insist on interpreting that _but_ as a
conjunction, thus to be followed by a pronoun in the nominative case.
Now the old saying that the shortest words make the longest problems
has much truth, and _but_ can at times be tricky to pin down as this or
that part of speech.
If, however, we consider this particular construction, we see that the
conjunctive school is asking us to read the thing as, in effect,
"whence all had fled but he had not fled". (Follett's article on the
point includes many further illustrative examples of interest that I
will skip.)
The crux is, as he points out, that that interpretation is not merely
one of grammatical artifice but one that changes the very meaning of
the subject "but". If one says "Nobody came but I/me", the meaning of
that _but_ is clearly "with the exception of_; but insist that it
expand out into "Nobody came but I came" or the like and you convert
the _but_ into an adversative conjunction signifying "on the contraray,
on the other hand", a decidedly nontrivial alteration in sense.

-------------
Thank you; this explains it well.

("Nobody knows, nobody sees
Nobody knows but me"
--Lefty Frizzell: Long Black Veil)

DianeE

[Skitt]

Post by Richard Maurer

Post by Eric Walker

Post by DianeE
The other day I said "Nobody but me noticed the error."
Then I thought, "That sounds wrong. It sounds like it ought to be
'Nobody but *I* noticed the error.' "
But that sounded even more wrong.
The practical solution to the problem, I realize, is "Nobody,
except me, noticed the error," but I remain unsure over what should
follow "Nobody but."

It's not a fully settled point. The poster child for the problem is
that mighty literateur Mrs. Felicia Hemans and her _Casabianca_, with
its dreadful line "The boy stood on the burning deck whence all but
"To the reader whose equipment is restricted to mere common sense
such a _but_ seems plainly a preposition meaning _except_ and
therefore logically and grammatically to be followed by _him_, not
_he_. But the dictionaries see it otherwise. . . ."
Eliding the full quotations from and discussion of each dictionary he
cites, the gravamen is that some insist on interpreting that _but_
as a conjunction, thus to be followed by a pronoun in the nominative
case. Now the old saying that the shortest words make the longest
problems has much truth, and _but_ can at times be tricky to pin
down as this or that part of speech.
If, however, we consider this particular construction, we see that
the conjunctive school is asking us to read the thing as, in effect,
"whence all had fled but he had not fled". (Follett's article on the
point includes many further illustrative examples of interest that I
will skip.)
The crux is, as he points out, that that interpretation is not merely
one of grammatical artifice but one that changes the very meaning of
the subject "but". If one says "Nobody came but I/me", the meaning
of that _but_ is clearly "with the exception of_; but insist that it
expand out into "Nobody came but I came" or the like and you convert
the _but_ into an adversative conjunction signifying "on the
contraray, on the other hand", a decidedly nontrivial alteration in
sense.

-------------
Thank you; this explains it well.
("Nobody knows, nobody sees
Nobody knows but me"
--Lefty Frizzell: Long Black Veil)

This subject is covered very well in
The American Heritage® Book of English Usage
at http://www.bartleby.com/64/C001/052.html

[DianeE]

Post by Skitt
This subject is covered very well in
The American Heritage® Book of English Usage
at http://www.bartleby.com/64/C001/052.html

-------------
Oh, that's terrific. Thanks. I've bookmarked that site.

(Too bad, though; I enjoy visiting this newsgroup!)

DianeE

[Oleg Lego]

Post by Richard Maurer

Post by Skitt
This subject is covered very well in
The American Heritage® Book of English Usage
at http://www.bartleby.com/64/C001/052.html

-------------
Oh, that's terrific. Thanks. I've bookmarked that site.
(Too bad, though; I enjoy visiting this newsgroup!)

Is there some reason you cannot visit both that site and this
newsgroup?

[DianeE]

Post by Oleg Lego

Post by Richard Maurer

Post by Skitt
This subject is covered very well in
The American Heritage® Book of English Usage
at http://www.bartleby.com/64/C001/052.html

-------------
Oh, that's terrific. Thanks. I've bookmarked that site.
(Too bad, though; I enjoy visiting this newsgroup!)

Is there some reason you cannot visit both that site and this
newsgroup?

--------------
No. I meant that I routinely visit this newsgroup to ask grammar questions,
but now I will have to visit it just for fun. Horrors!

DianeE

[Sara Lorimer]

Post by DianeE
No. I meant that I routinely visit this newsgroup to ask grammar questions,
but now I will have to visit it just for fun. Horrors!

Sheep and food are also On Topic, you know.