Bottle of whisky and a revolver

[Guy Barry]

Where did the trope of the "bottle of whisky and the revolver" come from?

(Yes, I have googled, and I haven't got far beyond this:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LeaveBehindAPistol .)

[Mack A. Damia]

On Sat, 19 Jul 2014 14:26:17 +0100, "Guy Barry"

Post by Guy Barry
Where did the trope of the "bottle of whisky and the revolver" come from?
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LeaveBehindAPistol .)

It may be from a death (suicide) pact.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/booknews/10823346/Richard-and-Judy-interview-We-have-our-very-own-suicide-pact.html

--

[Guy Barry]

Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sat, 19 Jul 2014 14:26:17 +0100, "Guy Barry"

Post by Guy Barry
Where did the trope of the "bottle of whisky and the revolver" come from?
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LeaveBehindAPistol .)

It may be from a death (suicide) pact.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/booknews/10823346/Richard-and-Judy-interview-We-have-our-very-own-suicide-pact.html

They took their ideas from the existing usage, not the other way round.
The original idea was that someone who'd been deemed to be dishonoured in
some way was offered the chance to "do the honourable thing", and was left
alone in a darkened room with a bottle of whisky and a loaded revolver.
It's a common idea in popular culture, but I've no idea of its origin.

[Mack A. Damia]

On Sat, 19 Jul 2014 14:45:56 +0100, "Guy Barry"

Post by Guy Barry

Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sat, 19 Jul 2014 14:26:17 +0100, "Guy Barry"

Post by Guy Barry
Where did the trope of the "bottle of whisky and the revolver" come from?
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LeaveBehindAPistol .)

It may be from a death (suicide) pact.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/booknews/10823346/Richard-and-Judy-interview-We-have-our-very-own-suicide-pact.html

They took their ideas from the existing usage, not the other way round.
The original idea was that someone who'd been deemed to be dishonoured in
some way was offered the chance to "do the honourable thing", and was left
alone in a darkened room with a bottle of whisky and a loaded revolver.
It's a common idea in popular culture, but I've no idea of its origin.

Another link, but this page suggests that the origin will never be
discerned.

"This is actually a play on a practice of the British Army back in the
imperial days, when officers (particularly those of noble birth)
accused of heinous crimes would be given the option of a pistol with
one shot, and a bottle of whiskey. Their subsequent "suicide" would be
less damaging to their family than a trial."

http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/52513/what-is-the-origin-of-this-quote-by-sheridan

--

[R H Draney]

Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sat, 19 Jul 2014 14:45:56 +0100, "Guy Barry"

Post by Guy Barry
The original idea was that someone who'd been deemed to be dishonoured in
some way was offered the chance to "do the honourable thing", and was left
alone in a darkened room with a bottle of whisky and a loaded revolver.
It's a common idea in popular culture, but I've no idea of its origin.

Another link, but this page suggests that the origin will never be
discerned.
"This is actually a play on a practice of the British Army back in the
imperial days, when officers (particularly those of noble birth)
accused of heinous crimes would be given the option of a pistol with
one shot, and a bottle of whiskey. Their subsequent "suicide" would be
less damaging to their family than a trial."

I suppose the whisky is supposed to take away the inhibition against using the
revolver, but there's a drawback...as Heinlein put it, "Beware of strong drink;
it can make you shoot at tax collectors -- and miss"....r

[Guy Barry]

Post by R H Draney

Post by Mack A. Damia
"This is actually a play on a practice of the British Army back in the
imperial days, when officers (particularly those of noble birth)
accused of heinous crimes would be given the option of a pistol with
one shot, and a bottle of whiskey. Their subsequent "suicide" would be
less damaging to their family than a trial."

I suppose the whisky is supposed to take away the inhibition against using the
revolver, but there's a drawback...as Heinlein put it, "Beware of strong drink;
it can make you shoot at tax collectors -- and miss"....r

I wondered about that as well. Left in a room with a bottle of whisky and a
revolver, I think I'd be most likely to drink all the whisky and pass out.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Guy Barry

Post by R H Draney
I suppose the whisky is supposed to take away the inhibition against using
the revolver, but there's a drawback...as Heinlein put it, "Beware of strong
drink; it can make you shoot at tax collectors -- and miss"....r

I wondered about that as well. Left in a room with a bottle of whisky and a
revolver, I think I'd be most likely to drink all the whisky and pass out.

Maybe it's a smaller bottle -- "The cup that inebriates but does not cheer."

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Guy Barry

Post by R H Draney

Post by Mack A. Damia
"This is actually a play on a practice of the British Army back in the
imperial days, when officers (particularly those of noble birth)
accused of heinous crimes would be given the option of a pistol with
one shot, and a bottle of whiskey. Their subsequent "suicide" would be
less damaging to their family than a trial."

I suppose the whisky is supposed to take away the inhibition against using the
revolver, but there's a drawback...as Heinlein put it, "Beware of strong drink;
it can make you shoot at tax collectors -- and miss"....r

I wondered about that as well. Left in a room with a bottle of whisky
and a revolver, I think I'd be most likely to drink all the whisky and
pass out.

You have to do these things in the right order. First you shoot
yourself, and then you drink the whisky.

(Don't laugh; you're next.)

[R H Draney]

Post by Peter Moylan
You have to do these things in the right order. First you shoot
yourself, and then you drink the whisky.
(Don't laugh; you're next.)

Who needs the revolver, then?...after drinking a full bottle of whisky, I'm
pretty much shot already....r

[Robert Bannister]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Guy Barry

Post by R H Draney

Post by Mack A. Damia
"This is actually a play on a practice of the British Army back in the
imperial days, when officers (particularly those of noble birth)
accused of heinous crimes would be given the option of a pistol with
one shot, and a bottle of whiskey. Their subsequent "suicide" would be
less damaging to their family than a trial."

I suppose the whisky is supposed to take away the inhibition against using the
revolver, but there's a drawback...as Heinlein put it, "Beware of strong drink;
it can make you shoot at tax collectors -- and miss"....r

I wondered about that as well. Left in a room with a bottle of whisky
and a revolver, I think I'd be most likely to drink all the whisky and
pass out.

You have to do these things in the right order. First you shoot
yourself, and then you drink the whisky.
(Don't laugh; you're next.)

When this thread first started, I thought it was going to be like the
very first shaggy dog story I heard which I will try to relate in a
relatively shortened form:

One dark and stormy night, a man turns up at the gate of the remote
monastery where I had recently entered holy orders. He asked to see the
Abbot, so I escorted him to the Abbot's chamber.
"Please", he said, shivering with cold, "Could you give me an apple, a
slice of bread, a glass of water and lock me in one of your cells for
the night?"
"Are you sure you need to be locked in?" asked the Abbot.
"Oh, yes. That is vital", came the reply.
The Abbot agreed, I brought the bread, apple and water and locked the
door with the massive, old-fashioned key.

Next morning I was sent to ask the man if would like to join us for our
meagre breakfast, but when I unlocked the door the cell was empty: the
bread was gone, the apple too, even the core, and the glass was as dry
as if it had been polished.

This went on for years. Every time, the man would turn up in the middle
of a storm, make the same simple request and disappear from his locked
room. One night, he turned up as the Abbot was dying, and the Abbot
asked to see him.
"Tell me son", said the Abbot, "I will never see you again, so before I
die, will you please tell me how you manage to disappear from a locked
cell like that?"
"I will tell you, but you must tell no-one else", declared the visitor.

I left the two together. By morning, the Abbot had passed away. The
mysterious man too had disappeared and never to return again, and as the
Abbot didn't pass on the secret, we never did get to the bottom of the
mystery.

[Mack A. Damia]

On Wed, 23 Jul 2014 09:36:11 +0800, Robert Bannister

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Guy Barry

Post by R H Draney

Post by Mack A. Damia
"This is actually a play on a practice of the British Army back in the
imperial days, when officers (particularly those of noble birth)
accused of heinous crimes would be given the option of a pistol with
one shot, and a bottle of whiskey. Their subsequent "suicide" would be
less damaging to their family than a trial."

I suppose the whisky is supposed to take away the inhibition against using the
revolver, but there's a drawback...as Heinlein put it, "Beware of strong drink;
it can make you shoot at tax collectors -- and miss"....r

I wondered about that as well. Left in a room with a bottle of whisky
and a revolver, I think I'd be most likely to drink all the whisky and
pass out.

You have to do these things in the right order. First you shoot
yourself, and then you drink the whisky.
(Don't laugh; you're next.)

When this thread first started, I thought it was going to be like the
very first shaggy dog story I heard which I will try to relate in a
One dark and stormy night, a man turns up at the gate of the remote
monastery where I had recently entered holy orders. He asked to see the
Abbot, so I escorted him to the Abbot's chamber.
"Please", he said, shivering with cold, "Could you give me an apple, a
slice of bread, a glass of water and lock me in one of your cells for
the night?"
"Are you sure you need to be locked in?" asked the Abbot.
"Oh, yes. That is vital", came the reply.
The Abbot agreed, I brought the bread, apple and water and locked the
door with the massive, old-fashioned key.
Next morning I was sent to ask the man if would like to join us for our
meagre breakfast, but when I unlocked the door the cell was empty: the
bread was gone, the apple too, even the core, and the glass was as dry
as if it had been polished.
This went on for years. Every time, the man would turn up in the middle
of a storm, make the same simple request and disappear from his locked
room. One night, he turned up as the Abbot was dying, and the Abbot
asked to see him.
"Tell me son", said the Abbot, "I will never see you again, so before I
die, will you please tell me how you manage to disappear from a locked
cell like that?"
"I will tell you, but you must tell no-one else", declared the visitor.
I left the two together. By morning, the Abbot had passed away. The
mysterious man too had disappeared and never to return again, and as the
Abbot didn't pass on the secret, we never did get to the bottom of the
mystery.

It's Germany in 1943. Ira is sneaking home through the back alleyways
of Warsaw to get home from Temple. Suddenly, he's confronted by Hitler
himself.

Hitler pulls a gun and says, "Ha! A Jew! I'm going to kill you
personally. But before I do, I want to have some fun with you. See
that pile of dogshit? Eat some of it."

Ira has no choice so he starts to eat some of the dogshit. Hitler
begins to laugh so hard that he drops the gun. Thinking quickly, Ira
picks it up. "Ha! Hitler! I'm going to kill you personally. But before
I do, I want to have some fun with you. See that pile of dogshit? Eat
some of it."

Hitler has no choice so he starts to eat some of the dogshit. Ira
begins to laugh so hard that he drops the gun. Thinking quickly,
Hitler picks it up. But too late. Ira has run away.

When Ira gets home, his wife is mad. "Where have you been?"

Ira smiles. "Honey, you won't believe who I just had lunch with!"

--

[Mike L]

On Wed, 23 Jul 2014 09:36:11 +0800, Robert Bannister
<***@clubtelco.com> wrote:

[...]

Post by Robert Bannister
When this thread first started, I thought it was going to be like the
very first shaggy dog story I heard which I will try to relate in a
One dark and stormy night, a man turns up at the gate of the remote
monastery where I had recently entered holy orders. He asked to see the
Abbot, so I escorted him to the Abbot's chamber.
"Please", he said, shivering with cold, "Could you give me an apple, a
slice of bread, a glass of water and lock me in one of your cells for
the night?"
"Are you sure you need to be locked in?" asked the Abbot.
"Oh, yes. That is vital", came the reply.
The Abbot agreed, I brought the bread, apple and water and locked the
door with the massive, old-fashioned key.
Next morning I was sent to ask the man if would like to join us for our
meagre breakfast, but when I unlocked the door the cell was empty: the
bread was gone, the apple too, even the core, and the glass was as dry
as if it had been polished.
This went on for years. Every time, the man would turn up in the middle
of a storm, make the same simple request and disappear from his locked
room. One night, he turned up as the Abbot was dying, and the Abbot
asked to see him.
"Tell me son", said the Abbot, "I will never see you again, so before I
die, will you please tell me how you manage to disappear from a locked
cell like that?"
"I will tell you, but you must tell no-one else", declared the visitor.
I left the two together. By morning, the Abbot had passed away. The
mysterious man too had disappeared and never to return again, and as the
Abbot didn't pass on the secret, we never did get to the bottom of the
mystery.
Robert Bannister (Don't you hate shaggy dog stories!)

I love this one to bits.

[Don Phillipson]

Post by Guy Barry
Where did the trope of the "bottle of whisky and the revolver" come from?

When a British army officer was deemed by his brother officers to have
done something unforgiveable, he was given a bottle of whisky and a
pistol and told to do the gentlemanly thing, i.e. top himself.

This meme was so well known in Britain that it could be guyed
(as in Beachcomber's comic Capt. Foulenough) without explanation.
The cited web site provides the basic story, but so windily as to be
unclear.

[Guy Barry]

Post by Don Phillipson

Post by Guy Barry
Where did the trope of the "bottle of whisky and the revolver" come from?

When a British army officer was deemed by his brother officers to have
done something unforgiveable, he was given a bottle of whisky and a
pistol and told to do the gentlemanly thing, i.e. top himself.

I know the story. What's the source? Did it ever actually happen?

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Sat, 19 Jul 2014 17:06:47 +0100, "Guy Barry"

Post by Guy Barry

Post by Don Phillipson

Post by Guy Barry
Where did the trope of the "bottle of whisky and the revolver" come from?

When a British army officer was deemed by his brother officers to have
done something unforgiveable, he was given a bottle of whisky and a
pistol and told to do the gentlemanly thing, i.e. top himself.

I know the story. What's the source? Did it ever actually happen?

There have no reports from people who did the gentlemanly thing.

[Guy Barry]

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sat, 19 Jul 2014 17:06:47 +0100, "Guy Barry"

Post by Guy Barry

Post by Don Phillipson

Post by Guy Barry
Where did the trope of the "bottle of whisky and the revolver" come from?

When a British army officer was deemed by his brother officers to have
done something unforgiveable, he was given a bottle of whisky and a
pistol and told to do the gentlemanly thing, i.e. top himself.

I know the story. What's the source? Did it ever actually happen?

There have no reports from people who did the gentlemanly thing.

Sure, but there would presumably be medical reports in such circumstances.
There has to be a post-mortem in cases of unexpected death. Aiding someone
to commit suicide is a criminal offence.

[charles]

Post by Guy Barry

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sat, 19 Jul 2014 17:06:47 +0100, "Guy Barry"

Post by Guy Barry

Post by Don Phillipson

Post by Guy Barry
Where did the trope of the "bottle of whisky and the revolver" come from?

When a British army officer was deemed by his brother officers to have
done something unforgiveable, he was given a bottle of whisky and a
pistol and told to do the gentlemanly thing, i.e. top himself.

I know the story. What's the source? Did it ever actually happen?

There have no reports from people who did the gentlemanly thing.

Sure, but there would presumably be medical reports in such
circumstances. There has to be a post-mortem in cases of unexpected
death. Aiding someone to commit suicide is a criminal offence.

We are talking about a time when the British Army had its own legal system.
It's only recently that inquests have started being held into the deaths of
British servicemen (and women). The civilian system couldn't have coped in
WW1 or 2.

[Mike L]

On Sat, 19 Jul 2014 18:09:14 +0100, charles

Post by charles

Post by Guy Barry

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sat, 19 Jul 2014 17:06:47 +0100, "Guy Barry"

Post by Guy Barry

Post by Don Phillipson

Post by Guy Barry
Where did the trope of the "bottle of whisky and the revolver" come from?

When a British army officer was deemed by his brother officers to have
done something unforgiveable, he was given a bottle of whisky and a
pistol and told to do the gentlemanly thing, i.e. top himself.

I know the story. What's the source? Did it ever actually happen?

There have no reports from people who did the gentlemanly thing.

We've heard a fair bit from Captain Grimes, though.

Post by charles

Post by Guy Barry
Sure, but there would presumably be medical reports in such
circumstances. There has to be a post-mortem in cases of unexpected
death. Aiding someone to commit suicide is a criminal offence.

We are talking about a time when the British Army had its own legal system.
It's only recently that inquests have started being held into the deaths of
British servicemen (and women). The civilian system couldn't have coped in
WW1 or 2.

In any case, an army is always an efficient hush-up machine, for
military as well as social reasons. "The right way, the wrong way, and
the army way."

[Mark Brader]

Post by Mike L
In any case, an army is always an efficient hush-up machine, for
military as well as social reasons. "The right way, the wrong way, and
the army way."

"Mr. Maryk, you may tell the crew for me that there are four ways of
doing things aboard my ship: The right way, the wrong way, the Navy way,
and my way. They do things my way, and we'll get along."

(That's Capt. Queeg in the 1954 movie "The Caine Mutiny", as rendered
in the IMDB. The movie was adapted from an original novel and a play,
both by Herman Wouk; I don't know if the line's in the other versions.)

[Mark Brader]

Post by Guy Barry
Aiding someone to commit suicide is a criminal offence.

There was a time when suicide itself was a crime in Britain, or
at least in England. I think the idea was that it was religiously
abhorrent in Christian country and also that things like "attempted
suicide" and "aiding a suicide" would then automatically be punishable.

I remember a scene in a mystery by Dorothy L. Sayers where Lord Peter
Wimsey refers to someone's death as a crime as a way of avoiding the
question of whether it was murder or suicide.

[Cheryl]

Post by Mark Brader

Post by Guy Barry
Aiding someone to commit suicide is a criminal offence.

There was a time when suicide itself was a crime in Britain, or
at least in England. I think the idea was that it was religiously
abhorrent in Christian country and also that things like "attempted
suicide" and "aiding a suicide" would then automatically be punishable.
I remember a scene in a mystery by Dorothy L. Sayers where Lord Peter
Wimsey refers to someone's death as a crime as a way of avoiding the
question of whether it was murder or suicide.

If we're thinking about the period in which the erring officer was
'persuaded' to commit suicide rather than shame his family and the
service, I'm not entirely certain how suicide was the better option,
given that both suicide and whatever he did were shameful and illegal. I
suppose if, as mentioned in an earlier post, the suicide were covered up
by the authorities - "accident while cleaning the gun" - the family's
reputation could be spared in public. Certainly suicides which were not
due to a guilty conscience on the part of the deceased were kept quiet
out of consideration for the privacy of his or her family until quite
recently, so it wouldn't have been an unusual proceedings.

I think Dorothy Sawyers also had an incident in which a convenient
suicide enabled the criminal to avoid public exposure and trial, and I
think Agatha Christie did as well. I always thought that was cheating a
bit - if the fellow was a dastardly murderer, he was getting off easy by
choosing suicide rather than answering for his crimes publicly - and in
front of his victim's next of kin.

[Jerry Friedman]

On 7/19/14 1:54 PM, Cheryl wrote:
...

Post by Cheryl
If we're thinking about the period in which the erring officer was
'persuaded' to commit suicide rather than shame his family and the
service, I'm not entirely certain how suicide was the better option,
given that both suicide and whatever he did were shameful and illegal. I
suppose if, as mentioned in an earlier post, the suicide were covered up
by the authorities - "accident while cleaning the gun" - the family's
reputation could be spared in public.

I'm not sure suicide was considered all that shameful at that time and
in that class, but others will know more than I do.

Post by Cheryl
Certainly suicides which were not
due to a guilty conscience on the part of the deceased were kept quiet
out of consideration for the privacy of his or her family until quite
recently, so it wouldn't have been an unusual proceedings.
I think Dorothy Sawyers also had an incident in which a convenient
suicide enabled the criminal to avoid public exposure and trial, and I
think Agatha Christie did as well. I always thought that was cheating a
bit - if the fellow was a dastardly murderer, he was getting off easy by
choosing suicide rather than answering for his crimes publicly - and in
front of his victim's next of kin.

In Sayers's /Whose Body/, the murderer intends to commit suicide but
gets so carried away writing a confession that he's arrested while
writing a postrscript.

(In /Gaudy Night/, Lord Peter asks what the ideal detective does if
forced to expose a family member as a murderer. "'Professional
etiquette,' said Harriet, 'would suggest an extorted confession,
followed by poison for two in the library.'"

[Paul Wolff]

Post by Jerry Friedman
...

Post by Cheryl
If we're thinking about the period in which the erring officer was
'persuaded' to commit suicide rather than shame his family and the
service, I'm not entirely certain how suicide was the better option,
given that both suicide and whatever he did were shameful and illegal. I
suppose if, as mentioned in an earlier post, the suicide were covered up
by the authorities - "accident while cleaning the gun" - the family's
reputation could be spared in public.

I'm not sure suicide was considered all that shameful at that time and
in that class, but others will know more than I do.

I'm hardly an expert (except, on reflection, I do seem to have known
several suicides - still less than the fingers of one hand though, so
not a huge number). And we're speaking of a long past era. But it's
certain that suicide could be seen as honourable, doing the decent
thing, sparing everyone the pain and shame of a trial where certain
unfortunate facts were bound to come out and be spread over the
newspapers. Suicide is definitely not necessarily shameful - think
Captain Oates, if you like.

[Jack Campin]

Post by Paul Wolff
But it's
certain that suicide could be seen as honourable, doing the decent
thing, sparing everyone the pain and shame of a trial where certain
unfortunate facts were bound to come out and be spread over the
newspapers.

A fairly typical example was General Sir Hector Macdonald, who shot
himself in Paris on his way from Ceylon to London to face a tribunal
on charges of indecency with children (he seems to have gone off his
trolley, among other things exposing himself to a whole railway
carriage full of Boy Scouts). But no bottle of whisky involved, that
I ever heard of.

Whisky wasn't supplied in bottles until late in the nineteenth century,
surely? So while the pistol part of this topos might go far back into
the early modern period, the whisky couldn't have.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile [phone] <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Jack Campin

Post by Paul Wolff
But it's
certain that suicide could be seen as honourable, doing the decent
thing, sparing everyone the pain and shame of a trial where certain
unfortunate facts were bound to come out and be spread over the
newspapers.

A fairly typical example was General Sir Hector Macdonald, who shot
himself in Paris on his way from Ceylon to London to face a tribunal
on charges of indecency with children (he seems to have gone off his
trolley, among other things exposing himself to a whole railway
carriage full of Boy Scouts). But no bottle of whisky involved, that
I ever heard of.

Thanks to both.

Post by Jack Campin
Whisky wasn't supplied in bottles until late in the nineteenth century,
surely? So while the pistol part of this topos might go far back into
the early modern period, the whisky couldn't have.

It might depend on what you mean by "supplied in bottles".

Here's a girl who "set a bottle of whisky or aquae vitae upon the table"
sometime before 1755.

http://books.google.com/books?id=6QYUAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA486

Here are people supplying Highland soldiers with bottles of whisky in
1778, as reported in 1783.

http://books.google.com/books?id=IbhXAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA317

I don't know when whisk(e)y was first sold in bottles. I get the
feeling the ones above were some kind of bottle that a person would get
filled from a barrel, but it still seems like something one could supply
along with a revolver to a patrician who had blotted his copybook.

Some glass bottles for spirits in the 18th century:

http://www.sha.org/bottle/liquor.htm#Maltwhiskey

[Robert Bannister]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Jack Campin

Post by Paul Wolff
But it's
certain that suicide could be seen as honourable, doing the decent
thing, sparing everyone the pain and shame of a trial where certain
unfortunate facts were bound to come out and be spread over the
newspapers.

A fairly typical example was General Sir Hector Macdonald, who shot
himself in Paris on his way from Ceylon to London to face a tribunal
on charges of indecency with children (he seems to have gone off his
trolley, among other things exposing himself to a whole railway
carriage full of Boy Scouts). But no bottle of whisky involved, that
I ever heard of.

Thanks to both.

Post by Jack Campin
Whisky wasn't supplied in bottles until late in the nineteenth century,
surely? So while the pistol part of this topos might go far back into
the early modern period, the whisky couldn't have.

It might depend on what you mean by "supplied in bottles".
Here's a girl who "set a bottle of whisky or aquae vitae upon the table"
sometime before 1755.
http://books.google.com/books?id=6QYUAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA486
Here are people supplying Highland soldiers with bottles of whisky in
1778, as reported in 1783.

How nice to read "brought her and me" instead of today's horrible
"brought she and I".

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Robert Bannister
How nice to read "brought her and me" instead of today's horrible
"brought she and I".

? Do you have evidence of "brought she and I"?

[Robert Bannister]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Robert Bannister
How nice to read "brought her and me" instead of today's horrible
"brought she and I".

? Do you have evidence of "brought she and I"?

I have heard both "she and I" and "we and they" on television - I think
after prepositions rather than as verb objects. Thus far, I have been
lucky enough not to meet this construction in reading.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Robert Bannister
How nice to read "brought her and me" instead of today's horrible
"brought she and I".

? Do you have evidence of "brought she and I"?

I have heard both "she and I" and "we and they" on television - I think
after prepositions rather than as verb objects.

My point exactly.

Post by Robert Bannister
Thus far, I have been
lucky enough not to meet this construction in reading.

[Robert Bannister]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Robert Bannister
How nice to read "brought her and me" instead of today's horrible
"brought she and I".

? Do you have evidence of "brought she and I"?

I have heard both "she and I" and "we and they" on television - I think
after prepositions rather than as verb objects.

My point exactly.

On the other hand, I come across "you and I" regularly as direct objects
in reading, and I am sure I have heard, not "she" but "he and I" as a
verb object. Watching television these days is a positive danger to
one's English.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Robert Bannister
How nice to read "brought her and me" instead of today's horrible
"brought she and I".

? Do you have evidence of "brought she and I"?

I have heard both "she and I" and "we and they" on television - I think
after prepositions rather than as verb objects. Thus far, I have been
lucky enough not to meet this construction in reading.

You can abandon that luck by searching the Web.

[Robert Bannister]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Robert Bannister
How nice to read "brought her and me" instead of today's horrible
"brought she and I".

? Do you have evidence of "brought she and I"?

I have heard both "she and I" and "we and they" on television - I think
after prepositions rather than as verb objects. Thus far, I have been
lucky enough not to meet this construction in reading.

You can abandon that luck by searching the Web.

I should have written "published reading". One can find almost anything
on the Web except, occasionally, the information you are looking for. I
think of it as one of those old, text-based adventure games.

[Steve Hayes]

Post by Jack Campin
Whisky wasn't supplied in bottles until late in the nineteenth century,
surely? So while the pistol part of this topos might go far back into
the early modern period, the whisky couldn't have.

Topos?

[Guy Barry]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Jack Campin
Whisky wasn't supplied in bottles until late in the nineteenth century,
surely? So while the pistol part of this topos might go far back into
the early modern period, the whisky couldn't have.

Topos?

Apart from a specialist use in mathematics, the definition appears to be "a
traditional or conventional literary or rhetorical theme or topic".

[Steve Hayes]

Post by Guy Barry

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Jack Campin
Whisky wasn't supplied in bottles until late in the nineteenth century,
surely? So while the pistol part of this topos might go far back into
the early modern period, the whisky couldn't have.

Topos?

Apart from a specialist use in mathematics, the definition appears to be "a
traditional or conventional literary or rhetorical theme or topic".

I've always understood it as a euphemism for the loo.

[James Hogg]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Guy Barry

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Jack Campin
Whisky wasn't supplied in bottles until late in the nineteenth century,
surely? So while the pistol part of this topos might go far back into
the early modern period, the whisky couldn't have.

Topos?

Apart from a specialist use in mathematics, the definition appears to be "a
traditional or conventional literary or rhetorical theme or topic".

I've always understood it as a euphemism for the loo.

That too is a common place.

[Mike L]

Post by James Hogg

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Guy Barry

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Jack Campin
Whisky wasn't supplied in bottles until late in the nineteenth century,
surely? So while the pistol part of this topos might go far back into
the early modern period, the whisky couldn't have.

Topos?

Apart from a specialist use in mathematics, the definition appears to be "a
traditional or conventional literary or rhetorical theme or topic".

I've always understood it as a euphemism for the loo.

That too is a common place.

And, as I understand it, was general in theological colleges
throughout the empire. The usage forms the nearest thing I can find to
support for my speculation that "loo" is from _lieu_, which is the
French for Greek _topos_.

[Paul Wolff]

Post by Mike L

Post by James Hogg

fOn Mon, 21 Jul 2014 07:26:25 +0100, "Guy Barry"

"Steve Hayes" wrote in message

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Jack Campin
Whisky wasn't supplied in bottles until late in the nineteenth century,
surely? So while the pistol part of this topos might go far back into
the early modern period, the whisky couldn't have.

Topos?

Apart from a specialist use in mathematics, the definition appears to be "a
traditional or conventional literary or rhetorical theme or topic".

I've always understood it as a euphemism for the loo.

That too is a common place.

And, as I understand it, was general in theological colleges
throughout the empire. The usage forms the nearest thing I can find to
support for my speculation that "loo" is from _lieu_, which is the
French for Greek _topos_.

You know, after all these years, I have only now understood the legal
basis for /locus standi/. And I'm not taking the piss.

[Reinhold {Rey} Aman]

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by Mike L
And, as I understand it, was general in theological colleges
throughout the empire. The usage forms the nearest thing I can
find to support for my speculation that "loo" is from _lieu_,
which is the French for Greek _topos_.

You know, after all these years, I have only now understood the
legal basis for /locus standi/. And I'm not taking the piss.

_Lokus_ is a colloquial German term for "toilet."

[Robert Bannister]

Post by Reinhold {Rey} Aman

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by Mike L
And, as I understand it, was general in theological colleges
throughout the empire. The usage forms the nearest thing I can
find to support for my speculation that "loo" is from _lieu_,
which is the French for Greek _topos_.

You know, after all these years, I have only now understood the
legal basis for /locus standi/. And I'm not taking the piss.

_Lokus_ is a colloquial German term for "toilet."

I haven't heard that one for years. Is it regional? I think I mainly
heard it in the Wetzlar-Marburg region.

[Reinhold {Rey} Aman]

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Reinhold {Rey} Aman
_Lokus_ is a colloquial German term for "toilet."

I haven't heard that one for years. Is it regional? I think
I mainly heard it in the Wetzlar-Marburg region.

It's used throughout Germany. Derived from student lingo
_locus necessitatis_.

[Reinhold {Rey} Aman]

Post by Reinhold {Rey} Aman

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Reinhold {Rey} Aman
_Lokus_ is a colloquial German term for "toilet."

I haven't heard that one for years. Is it regional? I think
I mainly heard it in the Wetzlar-Marburg region.

It's used throughout Germany. Derived from student lingo
_locus necessitatis_.

Another colloquial term is _das stille Örtchen_,
"the quiet little place."

[Robert Bannister]

Post by Reinhold {Rey} Aman

Post by Reinhold {Rey} Aman

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Reinhold {Rey} Aman
_Lokus_ is a colloquial German term for "toilet."

I haven't heard that one for years. Is it regional? I think
I mainly heard it in the Wetzlar-Marburg region.

It's used throughout Germany. Derived from student lingo
_locus necessitatis_.

Another colloquial term is _das stille Örtchen_,
"the quiet little place."

Lovely. Right-to-lifers might, however, get disturbed by "Abort".

[Robert Bannister]

Post by Reinhold {Rey} Aman

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Reinhold {Rey} Aman
_Lokus_ is a colloquial German term for "toilet."

I haven't heard that one for years. Is it regional? I think
I mainly heard it in the Wetzlar-Marburg region.

It's used throughout Germany. Derived from student lingo
_locus necessitatis_.

Thank you. That was who I heard it from: students.

[Steve Hayes]

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by Mike L

Post by James Hogg

fOn Mon, 21 Jul 2014 07:26:25 +0100, "Guy Barry"

"Steve Hayes" wrote in message

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Jack Campin
Whisky wasn't supplied in bottles until late in the nineteenth century,
surely? So while the pistol part of this topos might go far back into
the early modern period, the whisky couldn't have.

Topos?

Apart from a specialist use in mathematics, the definition appears to be "a
traditional or conventional literary or rhetorical theme or topic".

I've always understood it as a euphemism for the loo.

That too is a common place.

And, as I understand it, was general in theological colleges
throughout the empire. The usage forms the nearest thing I can find to
support for my speculation that "loo" is from _lieu_, which is the
French for Greek _topos_.

You know, after all these years, I have only now understood the legal
basis for /locus standi/. And I'm not taking the piss.

+1

[Ross]

Post by Mike L

Post by James Hogg

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Steve Hayes
Topos?

Apart from a specialist use in mathematics, the definition appears to be "a > >>> traditional or conventional literary or rhetorical theme or topic".

I've always understood it as a euphemism for the loo.

That too is a common place.

And, as I understand it, was general in theological colleges
throughout the empire. The usage forms the nearest thing I can find to
support for my speculation that "loo" is from _lieu_, which is the
French for Greek _topos_.

I also find the "lieu" etymology more plausible than any other I've heard.
I date my own conviction to finding the French expression "lieu d'aisance"
as a gloss in Bougainville's 18th century Tahitian vocabulary. The same
Tahitian word is given by the English as "place of easement".

[R H Draney]

Post by Ross

Post by Mike L

Post by James Hogg

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Guy Barry

Post by Steve Hayes
Topos?

Apart from a specialist use in mathematics, the definition appears to be "a

Post by Steve Hayes
traditional or conventional literary or rhetorical theme or topic".

I've always understood it as a euphemism for the loo.

That too is a common place.

And, as I understand it, was general in theological colleges
throughout the empire. The usage forms the nearest thing I can find to
support for my speculation that "loo" is from _lieu_, which is the
French for Greek _topos_.

I also find the "lieu" etymology more plausible than any other I've heard.
I date my own conviction to finding the French expression "lieu d'aisance"
as a gloss in Bougainville's 18th century Tahitian vocabulary. The same
Tahitian word is given by the English as "place of easement".

Hah!...a "rest" room!...r

[Steve Hayes]

Post by R H Draney

Post by Ross

Post by Mike L

Post by James Hogg

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Guy Barry

Post by Steve Hayes
Topos?

Apart from a specialist use in mathematics, the definition appears to be "a

Post by Steve Hayes
traditional or conventional literary or rhetorical theme or topic".

I've always understood it as a euphemism for the loo.

That too is a common place.

And, as I understand it, was general in theological colleges
throughout the empire. The usage forms the nearest thing I can find to
support for my speculation that "loo" is from _lieu_, which is the
French for Greek _topos_.

I also find the "lieu" etymology more plausible than any other I've heard.
I date my own conviction to finding the French expression "lieu d'aisance"
as a gloss in Bougainville's 18th century Tahitian vocabulary. The same
Tahitian word is given by the English as "place of easement".

Hah!...a "rest" room!...r

So could one call it a "wayleave" room?

[Mack A. Damia]

On Wed, 23 Jul 2014 04:26:42 +0200, Steve Hayes

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by R H Draney

Post by Ross

Post by Mike L

Post by James Hogg

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Guy Barry

Post by Steve Hayes
Topos?

Apart from a specialist use in mathematics, the definition appears to be "a

Post by Steve Hayes
traditional or conventional literary or rhetorical theme or topic".

I've always understood it as a euphemism for the loo.

That too is a common place.

And, as I understand it, was general in theological colleges
throughout the empire. The usage forms the nearest thing I can find to
support for my speculation that "loo" is from _lieu_, which is the
French for Greek _topos_.

I also find the "lieu" etymology more plausible than any other I've heard.
I date my own conviction to finding the French expression "lieu d'aisance"
as a gloss in Bougainville's 18th century Tahitian vocabulary. The same
Tahitian word is given by the English as "place of easement".

Hah!...a "rest" room!...r

So could one call it a "wayleave" room?

A "Wayside Chapel".

--

[Wayne Brown]

Post by Mack A. Damia
On Wed, 23 Jul 2014 04:26:42 +0200, Steve Hayes

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by R H Draney

Post by Ross

Post by Mike L

Post by James Hogg

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Guy Barry

Post by Steve Hayes
Topos?

Apart from a specialist use in mathematics, the definition appears to be "a

Post by Steve Hayes
traditional or conventional literary or rhetorical theme or topic".

I've always understood it as a euphemism for the loo.

That too is a common place.

And, as I understand it, was general in theological colleges
throughout the empire. The usage forms the nearest thing I can find to
support for my speculation that "loo" is from _lieu_, which is the
French for Greek _topos_.

I also find the "lieu" etymology more plausible than any other I've heard.
I date my own conviction to finding the French expression "lieu d'aisance"
as a gloss in Bougainville's 18th century Tahitian vocabulary. The same
Tahitian word is given by the English as "place of easement".

Hah!...a "rest" room!...r

So could one call it a "wayleave" room?

A "Wayside Chapel".

Or in other words, a W.C.

[Mack A. Damia]

On Wed, 23 Jul 2014 14:59:24 +0000 (UTC), Wayne Brown

Post by Wayne Brown

Post by Mack A. Damia
On Wed, 23 Jul 2014 04:26:42 +0200, Steve Hayes

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by R H Draney

Post by Ross

Post by Mike L

Post by James Hogg

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Guy Barry

Post by Steve Hayes
Topos?

Apart from a specialist use in mathematics, the definition appears to be "a

Post by Steve Hayes
traditional or conventional literary or rhetorical theme or topic".

I've always understood it as a euphemism for the loo.

That too is a common place.

And, as I understand it, was general in theological colleges
throughout the empire. The usage forms the nearest thing I can find to
support for my speculation that "loo" is from _lieu_, which is the
French for Greek _topos_.

I also find the "lieu" etymology more plausible than any other I've heard.
I date my own conviction to finding the French expression "lieu d'aisance"
as a gloss in Bougainville's 18th century Tahitian vocabulary. The same
Tahitian word is given by the English as "place of easement".

Hah!...a "rest" room!...r

So could one call it a "wayleave" room?

A "Wayside Chapel".

Or in other words, a W.C.

..........with plush seats that can acommodate up to fifty people at a
time. Organ music on Thursdays.

--

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by R H Draney

Post by Ross

Post by Mike L

Post by James Hogg

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Guy Barry

Post by Steve Hayes
Topos?

Apart from a specialist use in mathematics, the definition appears to be "a

Post by Steve Hayes
traditional or conventional literary or rhetorical theme or topic".

I've always understood it as a euphemism for the loo.

That too is a common place.

And, as I understand it, was general in theological colleges
throughout the empire. The usage forms the nearest thing I can find to
support for my speculation that "loo" is from _lieu_, which is the
French for Greek _topos_.

I also find the "lieu" etymology more plausible than any other I've heard.
I date my own conviction to finding the French expression "lieu d'aisance"
as a gloss in Bougainville's 18th century Tahitian vocabulary. The same
Tahitian word is given by the English as "place of easement".

Hah!...a "rest" room!...r

So could one call it a "wayleave" room?

I need to check, but I'll let you know right o'way.

[Guy Barry]

On Mon, 21 Jul 2014 07:26:25 +0100, "Guy Barry"

Post by Guy Barry

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Jack Campin
Whisky wasn't supplied in bottles until late in the nineteenth century,
surely? So while the pistol part of this topos might go far back into
the early modern period, the whisky couldn't have.

Topos?

Apart from a specialist use in mathematics, the definition appears to be "a
traditional or conventional literary or rhetorical theme or topic".

I've always understood it as a euphemism for the loo.

That's a new one on me.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Guy Barry

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Jack Campin
Whisky wasn't supplied in bottles until late in the nineteenth century,
surely? So while the pistol part of this topos might go far back into
the early modern period, the whisky couldn't have.

Topos?

Apart from a specialist use in mathematics, the definition appears to be "a
traditional or conventional literary or rhetorical theme or topic".

I've always understood it as a euphemism for the loo.

I'll try to remember to add (SAE=loo) the next time the word comes up.

[Katy Jennison]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Guy Barry

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Jack Campin
Whisky wasn't supplied in bottles until late in the nineteenth century,
surely? So while the pistol part of this topos might go far back into
the early modern period, the whisky couldn't have.

Topos?

Apart from a specialist use in mathematics, the definition appears to be "a
traditional or conventional literary or rhetorical theme or topic".

I've always understood it as a euphemism for the loo.

I'll try to remember to add (SAE=loo) the next time the word comes up.

<giggle>

[Guy Barry]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

fOn Mon, 21 Jul 2014 07:26:25 +0100, "Guy Barry"

Post by Guy Barry

On Sun, 20 Jul 2014 23:07:03 +0100, Jack Campin

Post by Jack Campin
Whisky wasn't supplied in bottles until late in the nineteenth century,
surely? So while the pistol part of this topos might go far back into
the early modern period, the whisky couldn't have.

Topos?

Apart from a specialist use in mathematics, the definition appears to be "a
traditional or conventional literary or rhetorical theme or topic".

I've always understood it as a euphemism for the loo.

I'll try to remember to add (SAE=loo) the next time the word comes up.

Anyone who accuses you of having no sense of humour after that one has got
serious problems.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Guy Barry

Post by Peter T. Daniels

fOn Mon, 21 Jul 2014 07:26:25 +0100, "Guy Barry"

Post by Guy Barry

On Sun, 20 Jul 2014 23:07:03 +0100, Jack Campin

Post by Jack Campin
So while the pistol part of this topos might go far back into
the early modern period, the whisky couldn't have.

Topos?

Apart from a specialist use in mathematics, the definition appears to be
"a traditional or conventional literary or rhetorical theme or topic".

I've always understood it as a euphemism for the loo.

I'll try to remember to add (SAE=loo) the next time the word comes up.

Anyone who accuses you of having no sense of humour after that one has got
serious problems.

I cheers, or ta, you and Katy.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Guy Barry

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Jack Campin
Whisky wasn't supplied in bottles until late in the nineteenth century,
surely? So while the pistol part of this topos might go far back into
the early modern period, the whisky couldn't have.

Topos?

Apart from a specialist use in mathematics, the definition appears to be
"a traditional or conventional literary or rhetorical theme or topic".

And a word I prefer to "trope" in that meaning, though outside academia,
the cause is lost.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Guy Barry

Post by Steve Hayes
Topos?

Apart from a specialist use in mathematics, the definition appears to be
"a traditional or conventional literary or rhetorical theme or topic".

And a word I prefer to "trope" in that meaning, though outside academia,
the cause is lost.

I use "topos" in the above sense and "trope" only for 'rhetorical figure'.

[Robert Bannister]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Guy Barry

Post by Steve Hayes
Topos?

Apart from a specialist use in mathematics, the definition appears to be
"a traditional or conventional literary or rhetorical theme or topic".

And a word I prefer to "trope" in that meaning, though outside academia,
the cause is lost.

I use "topos" in the above sense and "trope" only for 'rhetorical figure'.

How do you go with "meme", which I keep reading as French for "same"?

[Robert Bannister]

Post by Jack Campin

Post by Paul Wolff
But it's
certain that suicide could be seen as honourable, doing the decent
thing, sparing everyone the pain and shame of a trial where certain
unfortunate facts were bound to come out and be spread over the
newspapers.

A fairly typical example was General Sir Hector Macdonald, who shot
himself in Paris on his way from Ceylon to London to face a tribunal
on charges of indecency with children (he seems to have gone off his
trolley, among other things exposing himself to a whole railway
carriage full of Boy Scouts). But no bottle of whisky involved, that
I ever heard of.
Whisky wasn't supplied in bottles until late in the nineteenth century,
surely? So while the pistol part of this topos might go far back into
the early modern period, the whisky couldn't have.

Replace "bottle" with "decanter".

[Mike L]

On Sun, 20 Jul 2014 23:07:03 +0100, Jack Campin

Post by Jack Campin

Post by Paul Wolff
But it's
certain that suicide could be seen as honourable, doing the decent
thing, sparing everyone the pain and shame of a trial where certain
unfortunate facts were bound to come out and be spread over the
newspapers.

A fairly typical example was General Sir Hector Macdonald, who shot
himself in Paris on his way from Ceylon to London to face a tribunal
on charges of indecency with children (he seems to have gone off his
trolley, among other things exposing himself to a whole railway
carriage full of Boy Scouts). But no bottle of whisky involved, that
I ever heard of.

I'm sure this Gen. Macdonald was enormously distinguished for
something more creditable too...ah, yes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hector_MacDonald

Post by Jack Campin
Whisky wasn't supplied in bottles until late in the nineteenth century,
surely? So while the pistol part of this topos might go far back into
the early modern period, the whisky couldn't have.

I can't imagine that the beverage was available only by the cask.

[Robert Bannister]

On Sun, 20 Jul 2014 23:07:03 +0100, Jack Campin

Post by Jack Campin

Post by Paul Wolff
But it's
certain that suicide could be seen as honourable, doing the decent
thing, sparing everyone the pain and shame of a trial where certain
unfortunate facts were bound to come out and be spread over the
newspapers.

A fairly typical example was General Sir Hector Macdonald, who shot
himself in Paris on his way from Ceylon to London to face a tribunal
on charges of indecency with children (he seems to have gone off his
trolley, among other things exposing himself to a whole railway
carriage full of Boy Scouts). But no bottle of whisky involved, that
I ever heard of.

I'm sure this Gen. Macdonald was enormously distinguished for
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hector_MacDonald

Post by Jack Campin
Whisky wasn't supplied in bottles until late in the nineteenth century,
surely? So while the pistol part of this topos might go far back into
the early modern period, the whisky couldn't have.

I can't imagine that the beverage was available only by the cask.

Well, it's like brandy - it's too difficult to attach a bottle round the
neck your dog, so if you want your footsteps dogged by whisky, best to
use a small cask.

[Horace LaBadie]

Post by Mark Brader
I remember a scene in a mystery by Dorothy L. Sayers where Lord Peter
Wimsey refers to someone's death as a crime as a way of avoiding the
question of whether it was murder or suicide.

Dr. Penberthy takes the gentlemanly way out in The Unpleasantness at the
Bellona Club.

Without looking, I think Colonel Marjoribanks mentioned in an offhanded
way that he had left his pistol in the library of the club.

[Robert Bannister]

Post by Guy Barry

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sat, 19 Jul 2014 17:06:47 +0100, "Guy Barry"

Post by Guy Barry

Post by Don Phillipson

Post by Guy Barry
Where did the trope of the "bottle of whisky and the revolver" come from?

When a British army officer was deemed by his brother officers to have
done something unforgiveable, he was given a bottle of whisky and a
pistol and told to do the gentlemanly thing, i.e. top himself.

I know the story. What's the source? Did it ever actually happen?

There have no reports from people who did the gentlemanly thing.

Sure, but there would presumably be medical reports in such
circumstances. There has to be a post-mortem in cases of unexpected
death. Aiding someone to commit suicide is a criminal offence.

I'm sure this has not always been the case, but I cannot coax Google
into telling me when post mortem examinations became compulsory. I would
say the trope goes back to the old days when a post mortem was rare and
not terribly accurate, whereas pistols and whisky had been around for
quite a long time. Even in the 1930s, for example, I imagine that if you
belonged to the "right" family, your family doctor's first impulse would
be to write "death by misadventure while cleaning a bo^H^H pistol".
Poorer people wouldn't have been able to afford either the pistol or the
correct brand of whisky.

"Hah", said the coroner sotto voce, "McBoghan's blended. No wonder he
shot himself." Aloud, he intoned "A terrible accident. This court agrees
with Dr. Black's diagnosis: death by misadventure".