I'm just gonna leave this here...

[Phil Carmody]

This is what I learnt today:

Avoirdupois (/ˌævərdəˈpɔɪz/)

Yeah, ^- that bit

I will confess to having always frenchified the pronunciation.
Have I performed an overcorrection, or correctly reversed a
horrific mangling?

Phil

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Phil Carmody
Avoirdupois (/ˌævərdəˈpɔɪz/)
Yeah, ^- that bit
I will confess to having always frenchified the pronunciation. Have I
performed an overcorrection, or correctly reversed a horrific
mangling?

I too Frenchify the pronunciation, giving /&vwadipwa/.I'm not quite sure
how to represent the "du" vowel in ASCII IPA. In any case, I use the
French pronunciation. I've never heard a non-French pronunciaition.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Phil Carmody
Avoirdupois (/ˌævərdəˈpɔɪz/)
Yeah, ^- that bit
I will confess to having always frenchified the pronunciation. Have I
performed an overcorrection, or correctly reversed a horrific
mangling?

I too Frenchify the pronunciation, giving /&vwadipwa/.I'm not quite sure
how to represent the "du" vowel in ASCII IPA. In any case, I use the
French pronunciation. I've never heard a non-French pronunciaition.

Likewise, though on the last occasion I wanted to say it I hadn't
learned how make
or hear the difference between u (as in "dessus") and ou (as in "dessous").

[Steve Hayes]

Post by Peter Moylan

Avoirdupois (/?æv?rd??p??z/)
Yeah, ^- that bit
I will confess to having always frenchified the pronunciation. Have I
performed an overcorrection, or correctly reversed a horrific
mangling?

I too Frenchify the pronunciation, giving /&vwadipwa/.I'm not quite sure
how to represent the "du" vowel in ASCII IPA. In any case, I use the
French pronunciation. I've never heard a non-French pronunciaition.

I too.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Post by Peter Moylan

Avoirdupois (/?æv?rd??p??z/)
Yeah, ^- that bit
I will confess to having always frenchified the pronunciation. Have I
performed an overcorrection, or correctly reversed a horrific
mangling?

I too Frenchify the pronunciation, giving /&vwadipwa/.I'm not quite sure
how to represent the "du" vowel in ASCII IPA.

[dy]

Post by Peter Moylan
In any case, I use the
French pronunciation. I've never heard a non-French pronunciaition.

[Phil Carmody]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Phil Carmody
Avoirdupois (/ˌævərdəˈpɔɪz/)
Yeah, ^- that bit
I will confess to having always frenchified the pronunciation. Have I
performed an overcorrection, or correctly reversed a horrific
mangling?

I too Frenchify the pronunciation, giving /&vwadipwa/.I'm not quite sure
how to represent the "du" vowel in ASCII IPA. In any case, I use the
French pronunciation. I've never heard a non-French pronunciaition.

Thank goodness for that. I have to confess that I asked here hoping for
confirmation, but I would have been prepared to accept that some use
the to-me bizarrely-messed-up suggestion (which was from wikipedia).
I presume the origins of it are not far from the group which pronounce
Notre Dame no-ter-day-m.

Phil

[jerryfriedman]

Post by Phil Carmody

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Phil Carmody
Avoirdupois (/ˌævərdəˈpɔɪz/)
Yeah, ^- that bit
I will confess to having always frenchified the pronunciation. Have I
performed an overcorrection, or correctly reversed a horrific
mangling?

I too Frenchify the pronunciation, giving /&vwadipwa/.I'm not quite sure
how to represent the "du" vowel in ASCII IPA. In any case, I use the
French pronunciation. I've never heard a non-French pronunciaition.

Thank goodness for that. I have to confess that I asked here hoping for
confirmation, but I would have been prepared to accept that some use
the to-me bizarrely-messed-up suggestion (which was from wikipedia).
I presume the origins of it are not far from the group which pronounce
Notre Dame no-ter-day-m.

I'm sure the origins are well within the group that pronounces "dame"
as "daym".

[Tony Cooper]

Post by Phil Carmody

Post by Peter Moylan

Avoirdupois (/?æv?rd??p??z/)
Yeah, ^- that bit
I will confess to having always frenchified the pronunciation. Have I
performed an overcorrection, or correctly reversed a horrific
mangling?

I too Frenchify the pronunciation, giving /&vwadipwa/.I'm not quite sure
how to represent the "du" vowel in ASCII IPA. In any case, I use the
French pronunciation. I've never heard a non-French pronunciaition.

Thank goodness for that. I have to confess that I asked here hoping for
confirmation, but I would have been prepared to accept that some use
the to-me bizarrely-messed-up suggestion (which was from wikipedia).
I presume the origins of it are not far from the group which pronounce
Notre Dame no-ter-day-m.

In the US, the most common use of the term is in reference to the
university in South Bend, Indiana. It is pronounced "noter dame" by
all and sundry.

To Frenchify the university's name, would be a joke similar to
pronouncing Target (stores) as "tar-ghey".

[Hibou]

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Phil Carmody
Thank goodness for that. I have to confess that I asked here hoping for
confirmation, but I would have been prepared to accept that some use
the to-me bizarrely-messed-up suggestion (which was from wikipedia).
I presume the origins of it are not far from the group which pronounce
Notre Dame no-ter-day-m.

In the US, the most common use of the term is in reference to the
university in South Bend, Indiana. It is pronounced "noter dame" by
all and sundry.
To Frenchify the university's name, would be a joke similar to
pronouncing Target (stores) as "tar-ghey".

A bit like mixing up 'radge' and 'Raj', what?

[jerryfriedman]

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Phil Carmody

Post by Peter Moylan

Avoirdupois (/?æv?rd??p??z/)
Yeah, ^- that bit
I will confess to having always frenchified the pronunciation. Have I
performed an overcorrection, or correctly reversed a horrific
mangling?

I too Frenchify the pronunciation, giving /&vwadipwa/.I'm not quite sure
how to represent the "du" vowel in ASCII IPA. In any case, I use the
French pronunciation. I've never heard a non-French pronunciaition.

Thank goodness for that. I have to confess that I asked here hoping for
confirmation, but I would have been prepared to accept that some use
the to-me bizarrely-messed-up suggestion (which was from wikipedia).
I presume the origins of it are not far from the group which pronounce
Notre Dame no-ter-day-m.

In the US, the most common use of the term is in reference to the
university in South Bend, Indiana. It is pronounced "noter dame" by
all and sundry.

Most and various. I've heard "notra dame" ("o" as in "note") from
Americans.

Post by Tony Cooper
To Frenchify the university's name, would be a joke similar to
pronouncing Target (stores) as "tar-ghey".

True as far as "Dame" is concerned.

[Tony Cooper]

Post by jerryfriedman

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Phil Carmody

Post by Peter Moylan

Avoirdupois (/?æv?rd??p??z/)
Yeah, ^- that bit
I will confess to having always frenchified the pronunciation. Have I
performed an overcorrection, or correctly reversed a horrific
mangling?

I too Frenchify the pronunciation, giving /&vwadipwa/.I'm not quite sure
how to represent the "du" vowel in ASCII IPA. In any case, I use the
French pronunciation. I've never heard a non-French pronunciaition.

Thank goodness for that. I have to confess that I asked here hoping for
confirmation, but I would have been prepared to accept that some use
the to-me bizarrely-messed-up suggestion (which was from wikipedia).
I presume the origins of it are not far from the group which pronounce
Notre Dame no-ter-day-m.

In the US, the most common use of the term is in reference to the
university in South Bend, Indiana. It is pronounced "noter dame" by
all and sundry.

Most and various. I've heard "notra dame" ("o" as in "note") from
Americans.

I suppose, but I haven't, and I'm from Indiana and the Chicago area,
where the university is a frequent topic of conversation. I've even
been to a home football game at Notre Dame.

In Chicago, one can sometimes hear "Nodder Dame" (with "o" as in
"note").

Post by jerryfriedman

Post by Tony Cooper
To Frenchify the university's name, would be a joke similar to
pronouncing Target (stores) as "tar-ghey".

True as far as "Dame" is concerned.

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by Phil Carmody

Post by Peter Moylan

Avoirdupois (/?æv?rd??p??z/)
Yeah, ^- that bit
I will confess to having always frenchified the pronunciation. Have I
performed an overcorrection, or correctly reversed a horrific
mangling?

I too Frenchify the pronunciation, giving /&vwadipwa/.I'm not quite sure
how to represent the "du" vowel in ASCII IPA. In any case, I use the
French pronunciation. I've never heard a non-French pronunciaition.

Thank goodness for that. I have to confess that I asked here hoping for
confirmation, but I would have been prepared to accept that some use
the to-me bizarrely-messed-up suggestion (which was from wikipedia).
I presume the origins of it are not far from the group which pronounce
Notre Dame no-ter-day-m.

Isn't that the standard pronunciation, for the University?

Jan

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Mon, 24 Jun 2024 21:27:00 +0200

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Phil Carmody

Post by Peter Moylan

Avoirdupois (/?æv?rd??p??z/)
Yeah, ^- that bit
I will confess to having always frenchified the pronunciation. Have I
performed an overcorrection, or correctly reversed a horrific
mangling?

I too Frenchify the pronunciation, giving /&vwadipwa/.I'm not quite sure
how to represent the "du" vowel in ASCII IPA. In any case, I use the
French pronunciation. I've never heard a non-French pronunciaition.

Thank goodness for that. I have to confess that I asked here hoping for
confirmation, but I would have been prepared to accept that some use
the to-me bizarrely-messed-up suggestion (which was from wikipedia).
I presume the origins of it are not far from the group which pronounce
Notre Dame no-ter-day-m.

Isn't that the standard pronunciation, for the University?

See Also
Kay-Ro and Ay-thens, and Berk-lee/ the Berkshires (maybe; I've not heard
a US person pronuunce UKE Berkshire (we^wthe London set say
'Baarksha')

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
On Mon, 24 Jun 2024 21:27:00 +0200

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Phil Carmody

Post by Peter Moylan

Avoirdupois (/?æv?rd??p??z/)
Yeah, ^- that bit
I will confess to having always frenchified the pronunciation. Have I
performed an overcorrection, or correctly reversed a horrific
mangling?

I too Frenchify the pronunciation, giving /&vwadipwa/.I'm not quite sure
how to represent the "du" vowel in ASCII IPA. In any case, I use the
French pronunciation. I've never heard a non-French pronunciaition.

Thank goodness for that. I have to confess that I asked here hoping for
confirmation, but I would have been prepared to accept that some use
the to-me bizarrely-messed-up suggestion (which was from wikipedia).
I presume the origins of it are not far from the group which pronounce
Notre Dame no-ter-day-m.

Isn't that the standard pronunciation, for the University?

See Also
Kay-Ro and Ay-thens, and Berk-lee/ the Berkshires (maybe; I've not heard
a US person pronuunce UKE Berkshire (we^wthe London set say
'Baarksha')

Yes, they disagree on the pronunciation of the philosopher too, usually.

Jan

[Steve Hayes]

On Tue, 25 Jun 2024 12:22:15 +0100, "Kerr-Mudd, John"

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
Kay-Ro and Ay-thens, and Berk-lee/ the Berkshires (maybe; I've not heard
a US person pronuunce UKE Berkshire (we^wthe London set say
'Baarksha')

Which set says "Bark-sheer"?

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Steve Hayes
On Tue, 25 Jun 2024 12:22:15 +0100, "Kerr-Mudd, John"

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
Kay-Ro and Ay-thens, and Berk-lee/ the Berkshires (maybe; I've not heard
a US person pronuunce UKE Berkshire (we^wthe London set say
'Baarksha')

Which set says "Bark-sheer"?

I'm not a member of the London set, but I also say "baarksha" [bɑːkʃə]

Likewise for all the counties with -shire in their names. That doesn't
include Devon, which doesn't have -shire in its name unless you're a
grockle (or are referring to Devonshire cream). I imagine that also
applies to Dorset; I don't think anyone is so gauche as to stick -shire
on the end of Somerset or Cornwall.

[charles]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
Kay-Ro and Ay-thens, and Berk-lee/ the Berkshires (maybe; I've not
heard a US person pronuunce UKE Berkshire (we^wthe London set say
'Baarksha')

Which set says "Bark-sheer"?

I'm not a member of the London set, but I also say "baarksha" [b##k##]
Likewise for all the counties with -shire in their names. That doesn't
include Devon, which doesn't have -shire in its name unless you're a
grockle (or are referring to Devonshire cream). I imagine that also
applies to Dorset; I don't think anyone is so gauche as to stick -shire
on the end of Somerset or Cornwall.

and Norfolk, Suffolk, Essex, Kent, Surrey, Cumbria, (and Avon, Middlesex &
Rutland now gone)

[Aidan Kehoe]

Post by charles

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
Kay-Ro and Ay-thens, and Berk-lee/ the Berkshires (maybe; I've not
heard a US person pronuunce UKE Berkshire (we^wthe London set say
'Baarksha')

Which set says "Bark-sheer"?

I'm not a member of the London set, but I also say "baarksha" [b##k##]
Likewise for all the counties with -shire in their names. That doesn't
include Devon, which doesn't have -shire in its name unless you're a
grockle (or are referring to Devonshire cream). I imagine that also
applies to Dorset; I don't think anyone is so gauche as to stick -shire
on the end of Somerset or Cornwall.

and Norfolk, Suffolk, Essex, Kent, Surrey, Cumbria, (and Avon, Middlesex &
Rutland now gone)

What do you say for the counties of Scotland?

[Steve Hayes]

Post by charles

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
Kay-Ro and Ay-thens, and Berk-lee/ the Berkshires (maybe; I've not
heard a US person pronuunce UKE Berkshire (we^wthe London set say
'Baarksha')

Which set says "Bark-sheer"?

I'm not a member of the London set, but I also say "baarksha" [b##k##]
Likewise for all the counties with -shire in their names. That doesn't
include Devon, which doesn't have -shire in its name unless you're a
grockle (or are referring to Devonshire cream). I imagine that also
applies to Dorset; I don't think anyone is so gauche as to stick -shire
on the end of Somerset or Cornwall.

and Norfolk, Suffolk, Essex, Kent, Surrey, Cumbria, (and Avon, Middlesex &
Rutland now gone)

Not to mention Durham, which, I heard, was the only English county
that is not a shire.

But I was interested in the -sheer pronunciations, which I think I
heard on some BBC quiz programme,

[Ross Clark]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by charles

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
Kay-Ro and Ay-thens, and Berk-lee/ the Berkshires (maybe; I've not
heard a US person pronuunce UKE Berkshire (we^wthe London set say
'Baarksha')

Which set says "Bark-sheer"?

I'm not a member of the London set, but I also say "baarksha" [b##k##]
Likewise for all the counties with -shire in their names. That doesn't
include Devon, which doesn't have -shire in its name unless you're a
grockle (or are referring to Devonshire cream). I imagine that also
applies to Dorset; I don't think anyone is so gauche as to stick -shire
on the end of Somerset or Cornwall.

and Norfolk, Suffolk, Essex, Kent, Surrey, Cumbria, (and Avon, Middlesex &
Rutland now gone)

Not to mention Durham, which, I heard, was the only English county
that is not a shire.
But I was interested in the -sheer pronunciations, which I think I
heard on some BBC quiz programme,

This is given as the preferred pronunciation of the suffix -shire by
Daniel Jones as late as the 13th edition (1972); it is still allowed by
the CPD (2011), but "-shr" has been promoted to first place.

[Steve Hayes]

Post by Ross Clark

Post by Steve Hayes
Not to mention Durham, which, I heard, was the only English county
that is not a shire.
But I was interested in the -sheer pronunciations, which I think I
heard on some BBC quiz programme,

This is given as the preferred pronunciation of the suffix -shire by
Daniel Jones as late as the 13th edition (1972); it is still allowed by
the CPD (2011), but "-shr" has been promoted to first place.

Thank you; so I wan't just imagining things.

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by charles

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
Kay-Ro and Ay-thens, and Berk-lee/ the Berkshires (maybe; I've not
heard a US person pronuunce UKE Berkshire (we^wthe London set say
'Baarksha')

Which set says "Bark-sheer"?

I'm not a member of the London set, but I also say "baarksha" [b##k##]
Likewise for all the counties with -shire in their names. That doesn't
include Devon, which doesn't have -shire in its name unless you're a
grockle (or are referring to Devonshire cream). I imagine that also
applies to Dorset; I don't think anyone is so gauche as to stick -shire
on the end of Somerset or Cornwall.

and Norfolk, Suffolk, Essex, Kent, Surrey, Cumbria, (and Avon, Middlesex &
Rutland now gone)

Only yesterday I was musing on the "Three Counties".
I think of one as "Gloucestershire", but the other two as "Hereford" and
"Worcester".
No rhyme or reason to it.

[Janet]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by charles

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
Kay-Ro and Ay-thens, and Berk-lee/ the Berkshires (maybe; I've not
heard a US person pronuunce UKE Berkshire (we^wthe London set say
'Baarksha')

Which set says "Bark-sheer"?

I'm not a member of the London set, but I also say "baarksha" [b##k##]
Likewise for all the counties with -shire in their names. That doesn't
include Devon, which doesn't have -shire in its name unless you're a
grockle (or are referring to Devonshire cream). I imagine that also
applies to Dorset; I don't think anyone is so gauche as to stick -shire
on the end of Somerset or Cornwall.

and Norfolk, Suffolk, Essex, Kent, Surrey, Cumbria, (and Avon, Middlesex &
Rutland now gone)

Only yesterday I was musing on the "Three Counties".
I think of one as "Gloucestershire", but the other two as "Hereford" and
"Worcester".
No rhyme or reason to it.

I watched a war film in which the US military repeatedly
pronounced the English home town of the SAS (and me) as
"Here-ford".

Worcester sauce is commonly mis-spelled/pronounced by
American cooks as Worchestershire sauce.

almost as grating as "Eedinburg".

Janet

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Janet
I watched a war film in which the US military repeatedly
pronounced the English home town of the SAS (and me) as
"Here-ford".

An American friend of mine once announced that he was going to visit
"doon-din" in New Zealand.

[Tony Cooper]

Post by Janet

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by charles

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
Kay-Ro and Ay-thens, and Berk-lee/ the Berkshires (maybe; I've not
heard a US person pronuunce UKE Berkshire (we^wthe London set say
'Baarksha')

Which set says "Bark-sheer"?

I'm not a member of the London set, but I also say "baarksha" [b##k##]
Likewise for all the counties with -shire in their names. That doesn't
include Devon, which doesn't have -shire in its name unless you're a
grockle (or are referring to Devonshire cream). I imagine that also
applies to Dorset; I don't think anyone is so gauche as to stick -shire
on the end of Somerset or Cornwall.

and Norfolk, Suffolk, Essex, Kent, Surrey, Cumbria, (and Avon, Middlesex &
Rutland now gone)

Only yesterday I was musing on the "Three Counties".
I think of one as "Gloucestershire", but the other two as "Hereford" and
"Worcester".
No rhyme or reason to it.

I watched a war film in which the US military repeatedly
pronounced the English home town of the SAS (and me) as
"Here-ford".
Worcester sauce is commonly mis-spelled/pronounced by
American cooks as Worchestershire sauce.

I don't follow your complaint. The product sold in the US is clearly
labeled "Worchestershire Sauce".

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/shopping?q=tbn:ANd9GcTLZxxTvilZUvlAm2DxiEp3co4Je04ufH3Y6qN4BveJy0WdB95P2DvVo8q1mZeL1t6Qaur2a10GcGCqnGDwW2ascxqyyIQaCEdPBHdfT3aVthGlaCaSi0Bt2Iy1


According to the image at Wiki, the label on the bottle sold in the UK
also says "Worchestershire Sauce".

Google can't find a "Worcester Sauce".

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Tony Cooper
According to the image at Wiki, the label on the bottle sold in the UK
also says "Worchestershire Sauce".

BBC:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/ahistoryoftheworld/objects/mcraSW4BRJyBTtOMbcb6Tw

[Hibou]

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Janet
Worcester sauce is commonly mis-spelled/pronounced by
American cooks as Worchestershire sauce.

I don't follow your complaint. The product sold in the US is clearly
labeled "Worchestershire Sauce".
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/shopping?q=tbn:ANd9GcTLZxxTvilZUvlAm2DxiEp3co4Je04ufH3Y6qN4BveJy0WdB95P2DvVo8q1mZeL1t6Qaur2a10GcGCqnGDwW2ascxqyyIQaCEdPBHdfT3aVthGlaCaSi0Bt2Iy1

Well, almost. There's no 'h'.

Anyway, that photo may show some Chinese fake - the word 'flavour' isn't
spelled right.

[Hibou]

Post by Hibou

Post by Janet
Worcester sauce is commonly mis-spelled/pronounced by
American cooks as Worchestershire sauce.

I don't follow your complaint.  The product sold in the US is clearly
labeled "Worchestershire Sauce".
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/shopping?q=tbn:ANd9GcTLZxxTvilZUvlAm2DxiEp3co4Je04ufH3Y6qN4BveJy0WdB95P2DvVo8q1mZeL1t6Qaur2a10GcGCqnGDwW2ascxqyyIQaCEdPBHdfT3aVthGlaCaSi0Bt2Iy1

Well, almost. There's no 'h'.

I mean, there's only one, not two.

Post by Hibou
Anyway, that photo may show some Chinese fake - the word 'flavour' isn't
spelled right.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Janet
Worcester sauce is commonly mis-spelled/pronounced by
American cooks as Worchestershire sauce.

I don't follow your complaint. The product sold in the US is clearly
labeled "Worchestershire Sauce".

I compromise, and call it Worcesterchestershire sauce.

[charles]

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by charles

Post by Steve Hayes
On Tue, 25 Jun 2024 12:22:15 +0100, "Kerr-Mudd, John"

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
Kay-Ro and Ay-thens, and Berk-lee/ the Berkshires (maybe; I've
not heard a US person pronuunce UKE Berkshire (we^wthe London set
say 'Baarksha')

Which set says "Bark-sheer"?

I'm not a member of the London set, but I also say "baarksha" [b##k##]
Likewise for all the counties with -shire in their names. That
doesn't include Devon, which doesn't have -shire in its name unless
you're a grockle (or are referring to Devonshire cream). I imagine
that also applies to Dorset; I don't think anyone is so gauche as
to stick -shire on the end of Somerset or Cornwall.

and Norfolk, Suffolk, Essex, Kent, Surrey, Cumbria, (and Avon,
Middlesex & Rutland now gone)

Only yesterday I was musing on the "Three Counties". I think of one as
"Gloucestershire", but the other two as "Hereford" and "Worcester".
No rhyme or reason to it.

I watched a war film in which the US military repeatedly pronounced
the English home town of the SAS (and me) as "Here-ford".
Worcester sauce is commonly mis-spelled/pronounced by American cooks
as Worchestershire sauce.

I don't follow your complaint. The product sold in the US is clearly
labeled "Worchestershire Sauce".
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/shopping?q=tbn:ANd9GcTLZxxTvilZUvlAm2DxiEp3co4Je04ufH3Y6qN4BveJy0WdB95P2DvVo8q1mZeL1t6Qaur2a10GcGCqnGDwW2ascxqyyIQaCEdPBHdfT3aVthGlaCaSi0Bt2Iy1
According to the image at Wiki, the label on the bottle sold in the UK
also says "Worchestershire Sauce".

There is no "h" in the genuine version

[Phil]

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Janet

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by charles

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
Kay-Ro and Ay-thens, and Berk-lee/ the Berkshires (maybe; I've not
heard a US person pronuunce UKE Berkshire (we^wthe London set say
'Baarksha')

Which set says "Bark-sheer"?

I'm not a member of the London set, but I also say "baarksha" [b##k##]
Likewise for all the counties with -shire in their names. That doesn't
include Devon, which doesn't have -shire in its name unless you're a
grockle (or are referring to Devonshire cream). I imagine that also
applies to Dorset; I don't think anyone is so gauche as to stick -shire
on the end of Somerset or Cornwall.

and Norfolk, Suffolk, Essex, Kent, Surrey, Cumbria, (and Avon, Middlesex &
Rutland now gone)

Only yesterday I was musing on the "Three Counties".
I think of one as "Gloucestershire", but the other two as "Hereford" and
"Worcester".
No rhyme or reason to it.

I watched a war film in which the US military repeatedly
pronounced the English home town of the SAS (and me) as
"Here-ford".
Worcester sauce is commonly mis-spelled/pronounced by
American cooks as Worchestershire sauce.

I don't follow your complaint. The product sold in the US is clearly
labeled "Worchestershire Sauce".
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/shopping?q=tbn:ANd9GcTLZxxTvilZUvlAm2DxiEp3co4Je04ufH3Y6qN4BveJy0WdB95P2DvVo8q1mZeL1t6Qaur2a10GcGCqnGDwW2ascxqyyIQaCEdPBHdfT3aVthGlaCaSi0Bt2Iy1
According to the image at Wiki, the label on the bottle sold in the UK
also says "Worchestershire Sauce".
Google can't find a "Worcester Sauce".

As others have said, it's Worcestershire Sauce on the bottle; but in my
spoken English it's always been "wooster sauce" (short "oo" as in look,
not like Bertie).

[musika]

Post by Phil

Post by Tony Cooper
According to the image at Wiki, the label on the bottle sold in the UK
also says "Worchestershire Sauce".
Google can't find a "Worcester Sauce".

As others have said, it's Worcestershire Sauce on the bottle; but in my
spoken English it's always been "wooster sauce" (short "oo" as in look,
not like Bertie).

Bertie has the same pronunciation.

[Phil]

Post by musika

Post by Phil

Post by Tony Cooper
According to the image at Wiki, the label on the bottle sold in the UK
also says "Worchestershire Sauce".
Google can't find a "Worcester Sauce".

As others have said, it's Worcestershire Sauce on the bottle; but in
my spoken English it's always been "wooster sauce" (short "oo" as in
look, not like Bertie).

Bertie has the same pronunciation.

Yes, it does -- I must have been having a senior moment. Anyway, not as
in "rooster".

[Steve Hayes]

Post by Phil

Post by Tony Cooper
According to the image at Wiki, the label on the bottle sold in the UK
also says "Worchestershire Sauce".
Google can't find a "Worcester Sauce".

As others have said, it's Worcestershire Sauce on the bottle; but in my
spoken English it's always been "wooster sauce" (short "oo" as in look,
not like Bertie).

Should Bertie be pronounced like "rooster" then?

That I didn't know.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Phil

Post by Tony Cooper
According to the image at Wiki, the label on the bottle sold in the UK
also says "Worchestershire Sauce".
Google can't find a "Worcester Sauce".

As others have said, it's Worcestershire Sauce on the bottle; but in my
spoken English it's always been "wooster sauce" (short "oo" as in look,
not like Bertie).

Should Bertie be pronounced like "rooster" then?

Is this Bertie Rorcester we're talking about?

[Janet]

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Janet
Worcester sauce is commonly mis-spelled/pronounced by
American cooks as Worchestershire sauce.

I don't follow your complaint. The product sold in the US is clearly
labeled "Worchestershire Sauce".

Worcestershire, pronounced wusstershire, is not
spelled Worchestershire

Post by Tony Cooper
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/shopping?q=tbn:ANd9GcTLZxxTvilZUvlAm2DxiEp3co4Je04ufH3Y6qN4BveJy0WdB95P2DvVo8q1mZeL1t6Qaur2a10GcGCqnGDwW2ascxqyyIQaCEdPBHdfT3aVthGlaCaSi0Bt2Iy1
According to the image at Wiki, the label on the bottle sold in the UK
also says "Worchestershire Sauce".

No H in worcester.

Post by Tony Cooper
Google can't find a "Worcester Sauce".

Google should try harder

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/153926896974

Janet UK

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Janet

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by charles

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
Kay-Ro and Ay-thens, and Berk-lee/ the Berkshires (maybe; I've not
heard a US person pronuunce UKE Berkshire (we^wthe London set say
'Baarksha')

Which set says "Bark-sheer"?

I'm not a member of the London set, but I also say "baarksha" [b##k##]
Likewise for all the counties with -shire in their names. That doesn't
include Devon, which doesn't have -shire in its name unless you're a
grockle (or are referring to Devonshire cream). I imagine that also
applies to Dorset; I don't think anyone is so gauche as to stick -shire
on the end of Somerset or Cornwall.

and Norfolk, Suffolk, Essex, Kent, Surrey, Cumbria, (and Avon, Middlesex &
Rutland now gone)

Only yesterday I was musing on the "Three Counties".
I think of one as "Gloucestershire", but the other two as "Hereford" and
"Worcester".
No rhyme or reason to it.

I watched a war film in which the US military repeatedly
pronounced the English home town of the SAS (and me) as
"Here-ford".
Worcester sauce is commonly mis-spelled/pronounced by
American cooks as Worchestershire sauce.

I've often wondered why they convert a name that is easy to pronounce
into a tongue twister.

Post by Janet
almost as grating as "Eedinburg".

I've not heard that one.

[Hibou]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

 I watched a war film in which the US military  repeatedly
pronounced the English home town of the SAS (and me) as
"Here-ford".

<Smile>

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

 Worcester sauce is commonly mis-spelled/pronounced by
American cooks as Worchestershire sauce.

I've often wondered why they convert a name that is easy to pronounce
into a tongue twister.

  almost as grating as "Eedinburg".

I've not heard that one.

Though a one-time milkman from Embra might have pronounced it
'Worshestershire'....

[Steve Hayes]

Post by Janet
Worcester sauce is commonly mis-spelled/pronounced by
American cooks as Worchestershire sauce.

Here in South Africa we call it "Wuster" sauce (u as in "sugar), even
though the label on the bottle says "Worcestershire Sauce".

We do have a town called Worcester, (also pronounced "Wuster") but no
county called Worcestershire.

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by Steve Hayes
On Tue, 25 Jun 2024 12:22:15 +0100, "Kerr-Mudd, John"

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
Kay-Ro and Ay-thens, and Berk-lee/ the Berkshires (maybe; I've not heard
a US person pronuunce UKE Berkshire (we^wthe London set say
'Baarksha')

Which set says "Bark-sheer"?

I'm not a member of the London set, but I also say "baarksha" [b??k??]
Likewise for all the counties with -shire in their names. That doesn't
include Devon, which doesn't have -shire in its name unless you're a
grockle (or are referring to Devonshire cream).

Perhaps, but they still have a duke,

Jan

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Steve Hayes
On Tue, 25 Jun 2024 12:22:15 +0100, "Kerr-Mudd, John"

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
Kay-Ro and Ay-thens, and Berk-lee/ the Berkshires (maybe; I've not heard
a US person pronuunce UKE Berkshire (we^wthe London set say
'Baarksha')

Which set says "Bark-sheer"?

I'm not a member of the London set, but I also say "baarksha" [b??k??]
Likewise for all the counties with -shire in their names. That doesn't
include Devon, which doesn't have -shire in its name unless you're a
grockle (or are referring to Devonshire cream).

Perhaps, but they still have a duke,

Not really, the Duke is from Derbyshire, and has his seat there. No
serious connection with Devon. There is a theory (probably false) that
the title was the result of a clerical error, creating a Duke of
Devonshire when it was supposed to be Duke of Derbyshire.

[Steve Hayes]

On Wed, 26 Jun 2024 10:10:49 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Likewise for all the counties with -shire in their names. That doesn't
include Devon, which doesn't have -shire in its name unless you're a
grockle (or are referring to Devonshire cream). I imagine that also
applies to Dorset; I don't think anyone is so gauche as to stick -shire
on the end of Somerset or Cornwall.

I only add -shire to the name of a county (current or ceremonial) if
name of the county town is the same as the name of the county itself,
to avoid confusion.

In the case of Gloucester, for example, you can either add -shire to
the end, or "County of" to the beginning to avoid confusion with the
city of Gloucester, but as far as I know, there is no town called
Devon, or Dorset, or Somerset, or Cornwall.

There is, however, a City of Durham, but there is no county of
Durhamshire. So it is "County Durham", as in Ireland.

Lancashire is, like Durham, a County Palatine, but is the County of
Lancaster -- as far as I know it is the only exception.

In the case of Devon, however, a cousin of mine did put in the 1911
census column which asked for citizenship that all the members of the
household were "Devonshire dumplings" and in the column that asked for
marital status that the maid was "awaiting opportunity".

(Crossposted to soc.genealogy.britain, to try to keep it alive).

[Charles Ellson]

On Fri, 28 Jun 2024 07:29:24 +0200, Steve Hayes

Post by Steve Hayes
On Wed, 26 Jun 2024 10:10:49 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Likewise for all the counties with -shire in their names. That doesn't
include Devon, which doesn't have -shire in its name unless you're a
grockle (or are referring to Devonshire cream). I imagine that also
applies to Dorset; I don't think anyone is so gauche as to stick -shire
on the end of Somerset or Cornwall.

I only add -shire to the name of a county (current or ceremonial) if
name of the county town is the same as the name of the county itself,
to avoid confusion.
In the case of Gloucester, for example, you can either add -shire to
the end, or "County of" to the beginning to avoid confusion with the
city of Gloucester, but as far as I know, there is no town called
Devon, or Dorset, or Somerset, or Cornwall.
There is, however, a City of Durham, but there is no county of
Durhamshire. So it is "County Durham", as in Ireland.
Lancashire is, like Durham, a County Palatine, but is the County of
Lancaster -- as far as I know it is the only exception.

"County of XYZ" is in fairly routine use in more formal official
documents and notices.

Post by Steve Hayes
In the case of Devon, however, a cousin of mine did put in the 1911
census column which asked for citizenship that all the members of the
household were "Devonshire dumplings" and in the column that asked for
marital status that the maid was "awaiting opportunity".
(Crossposted to soc.genealogy.britain, to try to keep it alive).

[jerryfriedman]

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
On Mon, 24 Jun 2024 21:27:00 +0200

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Phil Carmody

Post by Peter Moylan

Avoirdupois (/?æv?rd??p??z/)
Yeah, ^- that bit
I will confess to having always frenchified the pronunciation. Have

I

Post by Phil Carmody

Post by Peter Moylan

performed an overcorrection, or correctly reversed a horrific
mangling?

I too Frenchify the pronunciation, giving /&vwadipwa/.I'm not quite

sure

Post by Phil Carmody

Post by Peter Moylan
how to represent the "du" vowel in ASCII IPA. In any case, I use the
French pronunciation. I've never heard a non-French pronunciaition.

Thank goodness for that. I have to confess that I asked here hoping

for

Post by Phil Carmody
confirmation, but I would have been prepared to accept that some use
the to-me bizarrely-messed-up suggestion (which was from wikipedia).
I presume the origins of it are not far from the group which pronounce
Notre Dame no-ter-day-m.

Isn't that the standard pronunciation, for the University?

See Also
Kay-Ro and Ay-thens,

MarSALES, VerSALES, MI-lan, etc.

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
and Berk-lee/ the Berkshires (maybe; I've not
heard
a US person pronuunce UKE Berkshire (we^wthe London set say
'Baarksha')

I'd pronounce "Berkshire" in the UK with the "work" vowel.

When did this "Barkshire", "clark" thing get started anyway?
And how do you pronounce the rhyming slang "berk"?

--
Jerry Friedman

[Garrett Wollman]

Post by jerryfriedman
I'd pronounce "Berkshire" in the UK with the "work" vowel.

Berkshire County here in Massachusetts is /bRkSR/, and the eponymous
mountain range is /D@ bRkSRz/. But three-syllable <-shire> names,
like Devonshire Street in Boston, get the full "shire", /'dEvn-,SaIr/,
not /-SiR/ "sheer".[1]

Post by jerryfriedman
When did this "Barkshire", "clark" thing get started anyway?

Long enough ago to have influenced the spelling of the town (now city)
of Hartford, Connecticut. It's actually a bit surprising to me, given
that the Boston accent picked up other SEEngE sound changes,[2] that they
don't put an /A/ in "Berkshire".

-GAWollman

[1] All but two or maybe three of our county-names come from English
toponymy: Berkshire, Franklin, Hampshire, Hampden, Worcester,
Middlesex, Essex, Suffolk, Norfolk, Bristol, Plymouth, Barnstable,
Dukes County, and Nantucket. The current Norfolk County is a later
split from Suffolk County, but there was an earlier Norfolk County
which was abolished in colonial times when it was found to be in New
Hampshire. Similarly, the counties of Dukes County [sic] and
Nantucket were transferred from New York colony to Massachusetts Bay
colony in the 17th century.

[2] For example, many Bostonians have the TRAP-BATH split, something
not shared by most other non-rhotic AmE accents, and this is explained
as a change that arose a time when it was fashionable for Bostonians
to imitate the speech of London, *after* the same split took place in
South East England.

[Tony Cooper]

Post by jerryfriedman

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
On Mon, 24 Jun 2024 21:27:00 +0200

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Phil Carmody

Post by Peter Moylan

Avoirdupois (/?æv?rd??p??z/)
Yeah, ^- that bit
I will confess to having always frenchified the pronunciation. Have

I

Post by Phil Carmody

Post by Peter Moylan

performed an overcorrection, or correctly reversed a horrific
mangling?

I too Frenchify the pronunciation, giving /&vwadipwa/.I'm not quite

sure

Post by Phil Carmody

Post by Peter Moylan
how to represent the "du" vowel in ASCII IPA. In any case, I use the
French pronunciation. I've never heard a non-French pronunciaition.

Thank goodness for that. I have to confess that I asked here hoping

for

Post by Phil Carmody
confirmation, but I would have been prepared to accept that some use
the to-me bizarrely-messed-up suggestion (which was from wikipedia).
I presume the origins of it are not far from the group which pronounce
Notre Dame no-ter-day-m.

Isn't that the standard pronunciation, for the University?

See Also
Kay-Ro and Ay-thens,

MarSALES, VerSALES, MI-lan, etc.

There is both a Versailles, Indiana and a Milan, Indiana. (Milan is
famous in Indiana because the tiny Milan high school won the state
basketball tournement in 1954. That win was memorialized in the movie
"Hoosiers". I was in the stands to see the win.)

Residents of both would look strangely at anyone who didn't pronounce
the names as Ver-Sales and MI-lan. I haven't been to Marsailles,
Illinois, but I assume the locals think 'Mar-Sayles" is where they
live.

I've been to both places, but not to Cairo "Kay-Ro", or Marsailles,
Illinois but I would follow local pronunciation. (I've been to
Athens, Georgia, but Ay-thens is "Ath-Ens" with a deep Southern drawl.
The same person who says Ay-thens orders Sweet Tay at lunch. That
"Ay" is drawn out and not a hard A.)

These places were named long ago. (Cairo and Versailles in 1818 and
Milan in 1842.) Why should the residents not be able to pronounce the
name as they choose?

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Tony Cooper
There is both a Versailles, Indiana and a Milan, Indiana. (Milan is
famous in Indiana because the tiny Milan high school won the state
basketball tournement in 1954. That win was memorialized in the
movie "Hoosiers". I was in the stands to see the win.)
Residents of both would look strangely at anyone who didn't
pronounce the names as Ver-Sales and MI-lan. I haven't been to
Marsailles, Illinois, but I assume the locals think 'Mar-Sayles" is
where they live.

In the course of my genealogical researches, some years ago, I
discovered that a group of Moylans migrated from Ireland to the USA, but
because they couldn't spell the name was recorded as Milan. One of the
US towns was named after a very distant relative of mine, so of course
it wasn't pronounced anything like Milano. Unfortunately I didn't keep
records of this, so I don't know which of the several US Milans it was.

[jerryfriedman]

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by jerryfriedman

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
On Mon, 24 Jun 2024 21:27:00 +0200

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Phil Carmody

Post by Peter Moylan

Avoirdupois (/?æv?rd??p??z/)
Yeah, ^- that bit
I will confess to having always frenchified the pronunciation. Have

I

Post by Phil Carmody

Post by Peter Moylan

performed an overcorrection, or correctly reversed a horrific
mangling?

I too Frenchify the pronunciation, giving /&vwadipwa/.I'm not quite

sure

Post by Phil Carmody

Post by Peter Moylan
how to represent the "du" vowel in ASCII IPA. In any case, I use the
French pronunciation. I've never heard a non-French pronunciaition.

Thank goodness for that. I have to confess that I asked here hoping

for

Post by Phil Carmody
confirmation, but I would have been prepared to accept that some use
the to-me bizarrely-messed-up suggestion (which was from wikipedia).
I presume the origins of it are not far from the group which pronounce
Notre Dame no-ter-day-m.

Isn't that the standard pronunciation, for the University?

See Also
Kay-Ro and Ay-thens,

MarSALES, VerSALES, MI-lan, etc.

There is both a Versailles, Indiana and a Milan, Indiana. (Milan is
famous in Indiana because the tiny Milan high school won the state
basketball tournement in 1954. That win was memorialized in the movie
"Hoosiers". I was in the stands to see the win.)

One of each in Ohio, too. Neither is famous.

Post by Tony Cooper
Residents of both would look strangely at anyone who didn't pronounce
the names as Ver-Sales and MI-lan. I haven't been to Marsailles,
Illinois, but I assume the locals think 'Mar-Sayles" is where they
live.

Yes, I knew someone from there. But it's Marseilles with an "e".

Post by Tony Cooper
These places were named long ago. (Cairo and Versailles in 1818 and
Milan in 1842.) Why should the residents not be able to pronounce the
name as they choose?

They should, just like the residents of Berkshire, Worcestershire,
Cholmondely, etc.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by jerryfriedman

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by jerryfriedman

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
On Mon, 24 Jun 2024 21:27:00 +0200

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Phil Carmody

Post by Peter Moylan

Avoirdupois (/?æv?rd??p??z/)
Yeah, ^- that bit
I will confess to having always frenchified the pronunciation. Have

I

Post by Phil Carmody

Post by Peter Moylan

performed an overcorrection, or correctly reversed a horrific
mangling?

I too Frenchify the pronunciation, giving /&vwadipwa/.I'm not quite

sure

Post by Phil Carmody

Post by Peter Moylan
how to represent the "du" vowel in ASCII IPA. In any case, I use the
French pronunciation. I've never heard a non-French pronunciaition.

Thank goodness for that. I have to confess that I asked here hoping

for

Post by Phil Carmody
confirmation, but I would have been prepared to accept that some use
the to-me bizarrely-messed-up suggestion (which was from wikipedia).
I presume the origins of it are not far from the group which pronounce
Notre Dame no-ter-day-m.

Isn't that the standard pronunciation, for the University?

See Also
Kay-Ro and Ay-thens,

MarSALES, VerSALES, MI-lan, etc.

There is both a Versailles, Indiana and a Milan, Indiana. (Milan is
famous in Indiana because the tiny Milan high school won the state
basketball tournement in 1954. That win was memorialized in the movie
"Hoosiers". I was in the stands to see the win.)

One of each in Ohio, too. Neither is famous.

Post by Tony Cooper
Residents of both would look strangely at anyone who didn't pronounce
the names as Ver-Sales and MI-lan. I haven't been to Marsailles,
Illinois, but I assume the locals think 'Mar-Sayles" is where they
live.

Yes, I knew someone from there. But it's Marseilles with an "e".

Post by Tony Cooper
These places were named long ago. (Cairo and Versailles in 1818 and
Milan in 1842.) Why should the residents not be able to pronounce the
name as they choose?

They should, just like the residents of Berkshire, Worcestershire,
Cholmondely, etc.

Not to mention Featherstonehaugh.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by jerryfriedman

Post by Tony Cooper
These places were named long ago. (Cairo and Versailles in 1818
and Milan in 1842.) Why should the residents not be able to
pronounce the name as they choose?

They should, just like the residents of Berkshire, Worcestershire,
Cholmondely, etc.

Not to mention Featherstonehaugh.

Just recently I had a brief vacation in Cairns, in Australia's tropical
north. Some people call it [kE:nz] or [***@nz], some call it [k&:nz]. I
checked with the locals to get the "proper" pronunciation.

It turns out that they call it [k&:nz]. Just like Cannes would be if it
had been in England rather than France.

[Steve Hayes]

On Thu, 27 Jun 2024 17:23:15 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by jerryfriedman
They should, just like the residents of Berkshire, Worcestershire,
Cholmondely, etc.

Not to mention Featherstonehaugh.

How do people called Strachan pronounce their name?

I'm inclined to pronounce it with an unvoiced guttural ch as in
"loch", but I read somewhere that people who have the name pronounce
it "strawn".

I think we've already discussed Cirencester, which looks as though it
should be pronounced "sinster", but isn't.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Steve Hayes
On Thu, 27 Jun 2024 17:23:15 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by jerryfriedman
They should, just like the residents of Berkshire, Worcestershire,
Cholmondely, etc.

Not to mention Featherstonehaugh.

How do people called Strachan pronounce their name?
I'm inclined to pronounce it with an unvoiced guttural ch as in
"loch", but I read somewhere that people who have the name pronounce
it "strawn".

There's a town in Tasmania called Strahan. I keep accidentally inserting
the guttural.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Steve Hayes
On Thu, 27 Jun 2024 17:23:15 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by jerryfriedman
They should, just like the residents of Berkshire, Worcestershire,
Cholmondely, etc.

Not to mention Featherstonehaugh.

How do people called Strachan pronounce their name?
I'm inclined to pronounce it with an unvoiced guttural ch as in
"loch", but I read somewhere that people who have the name pronounce
it "strawn".

The only Strahan I have known pronounced it like that. He chnged the
spelling to Strachan during the period I knew him, with no change in
pronunciation.

Post by Steve Hayes
I think we've already discussed Cirencester, which looks as though it
should be pronounced "sinster", but isn't.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Not to mention Featherstonehaugh.

How do people called Strachan pronounce their name?

This page has helped me a couple of times:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_irregularly_spelled_English_names

It has "Strachan" but not "Cirencester".

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Not to mention Featherstonehaugh.

How do people called Strachan pronounce their name?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_irregularly_spelled_English_names
It has "Strachan" but not "Cirencester".

Like so many Wikipedia pages, it's extremely USA-centric, including
obscure (to the rest of us) baseball players, but ignoring well known
towns like Cirencester. The case of Colin Powell is interesting: it
mentionsthe strange way he pronounces "Colin", but ignores the fact
that many people in the UK with the same surname pronounce it like
pole. Many, not all: Baden-Powell yes; Enoch Powell no.

On the other hand, "Cirencester" is NOT irregularly spelt; it's
pronounced exactly as the spelling suggests. It's the wrong
pronunciation that is irregular.

[jerryfriedman]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Not to mention Featherstonehaugh.

How do people called Strachan pronounce their name?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_irregularly_spelled_English_names
It has "Strachan" but not "Cirencester".

Like so many Wikipedia pages, it's extremely USA-centric, including
obscure (to the rest of us) baseball players, but ignoring well known
towns like Cirencester. The case of Colin Powell is interesting: it
mentionsthe strange way he pronounces "Colin", but ignores the fact
that many people in the UK with the same surname pronounce it like
pole. Many, not all: Baden-Powell yes; Enoch Powell no.

The two pronunciations are in the "General use" subsection
of the "Surnames" section, but with no guidance about
which people use which pronunciation.

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
On the other hand, "Cirencester" is NOT irregularly spelt; it's
pronounced exactly as the spelling suggests. It's the wrong
pronunciation that is irregular.

There are no British or American place names at that page.
Instead there are links to

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_irregularly_spelt_places_in_the_United_Kingdom

and a similar article for the United States.

The article on British names says "Cirencester" is pronounced
"/ˈsɪsɪtər/ Also regular". It doesn't say whether "regular" means
the vowel of "siren" or that of "miracle", but the article on
Cirencester says it's the former, with more information on
pronunciations of the name.

I agree that the"List of irregularly spelled English names" has
a greater preponderance of American names than the disparity
in population would justify, but I wonder whether irregular
pronunciations and spellings are more popular here than over
there.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Like so many Wikipedia pages, it's extremely USA-centric, including
obscure (to the rest of us) baseball players, but ignoring well known
towns like Cirencester. The case of Colin Powell is interesting: it
mentionsthe strange way he pronounces "Colin",

I've read that he and his family pronounced the name normally (vowel
like "column") but that people in the neighbourhood and school so often
pronounced it the other way that he stopped correcting it.

[charles]

Post by Steve Hayes
On Thu, 27 Jun 2024 17:23:15 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by jerryfriedman
They should, just like the residents of Berkshire, Worcestershire,
Cholmondely, etc.

Not to mention Featherstonehaugh.

How do people called Strachan pronounce their name?
I'm inclined to pronounce it with an unvoiced guttural ch as in
"loch", but I read somewhere that people who have the name pronounce
it "strawn".

That's how I was taught to say it.

Post by Steve Hayes
I think we've already discussed Cirencester, which looks as though it
should be pronounced "sinster", but isn't.

Corinium, surely

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by charles

Post by Steve Hayes
How do people called Strachan pronounce their name?
I'm inclined to pronounce it with an unvoiced guttural ch as in
"loch", but I read somewhere that people who have the name pronounce
it "strawn".

That's how I was taught to say it.

I am currently watching "Shetland VIII". In episode 4 the character Ruth
Calder mentions the name. She pronounces it "stra-kan".

[Ross Clark]

Post by Steve Hayes
On Thu, 27 Jun 2024 17:23:15 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by jerryfriedman
They should, just like the residents of Berkshire, Worcestershire,
Cholmondely, etc.

Not to mention Featherstonehaugh.

How do people called Strachan pronounce their name?

There was a provincial politician in British Columbia by that name when
I was young. Everybody I heard pronounced it to rhyme with "bracken".

Post by Steve Hayes
I'm inclined to pronounce it with an unvoiced guttural ch as in
"loch", but I read somewhere that people who have the name pronounce
it "strawn".
I think we've already discussed Cirencester, which looks as though it
should be pronounced "sinster", but isn't.

[Adam Funk]

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by jerryfriedman
MarSALES, VerSALES, MI-lan, etc.

There is both a Versailles, Indiana and a Milan, Indiana. (Milan is
famous in Indiana because the tiny Milan high school won the state
basketball tournement in 1954. That win was memorialized in the movie
"Hoosiers". I was in the stands to see the win.)
Residents of both would look strangely at anyone who didn't pronounce
the names as Ver-Sales and MI-lan. I haven't been to Marsailles,
Illinois, but I assume the locals think 'Mar-Sayles" is where they
live.
I've been to both places, but not to Cairo "Kay-Ro", or Marsailles,
Illinois but I would follow local pronunciation. (I've been to
Athens, Georgia, but Ay-thens is "Ath-Ens" with a deep Southern drawl.
The same person who says Ay-thens orders Sweet Tay at lunch. That
"Ay" is drawn out and not a hard A.)
These places were named long ago. (Cairo and Versailles in 1818 and
Milan in 1842.) Why should the residents not be able to pronounce the
name as they choose?

The USS Cairo, an ironclad in the Mississippi during the Civil War is
also KAY-ro (named after the one in Illinois).

I haven't been to Versailles, KY, but in _Justified_ it's also
vər-SALES (/vərˈseɪlz/ confirmed by Wikipedia).

"Milan Brothers" (MY-lən) was a tobacco shop in Roanoke, VA, run by
several generations of a family of Lebanese origin.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by jerryfriedman

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
On Mon, 24 Jun 2024 21:27:00 +0200

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Phil Carmody

Post by Peter Moylan

Avoirdupois (/?æv?rd??p??z/)
Yeah, ^- that bit
I will confess to having always frenchified the pronunciation. Have

I

Post by Phil Carmody

Post by Peter Moylan

performed an overcorrection, or correctly reversed a horrific
mangling?

I too Frenchify the pronunciation, giving /&vwadipwa/.I'm not quite

sure

Post by Phil Carmody

Post by Peter Moylan
how to represent the "du" vowel in ASCII IPA. In any case, I use the
French pronunciation. I've never heard a non-French pronunciaition.

Thank goodness for that. I have to confess that I asked here hoping

for

Post by Phil Carmody
confirmation, but I would have been prepared to accept that some use
the to-me bizarrely-messed-up suggestion (which was from wikipedia).
I presume the origins of it are not far from the group which pronounce
Notre Dame no-ter-day-m.

Isn't that the standard pronunciation, for the University?

See Also
Kay-Ro and Ay-thens,

MarSALES, VerSALES, MI-lan, etc.

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
and Berk-lee/ the Berkshires (maybe; I've not
heard
a US person pronuunce UKE Berkshire (we^wthe London set say
'Baarksha')

I'd pronounce "Berkshire" in the UK with the "work" vowel.
When did this "Barkshire", "clark" thing get started anyway?

Also Varsity as a colloquial word for university.

Post by jerryfriedman
And how do you pronounce the rhyming slang "berk"?

The same way as you (except that I'm non-rhotic), which is curious, as
it's derived from Berkeley (rhyming slang from "Berkeley Hunt").

Berkhamsted, on the other hand, is not "barkəmsted", even though it's
in Hertfordshire ("hartfədshə"). The Oxford college is "harfəd" (no t).

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by jerryfriedman
MarSALES, VerSALES, MI-lan, etc.

Not too surprisingly, I pronounce Marseilles the French way, but I
spell it the English way.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by jerryfriedman
MarSALES, VerSALES, MI-lan, etc.

Not too surprisingly, I pronounce Marseilles the French way, but I
spell it the English way.

I thought the English way was identical to the French, so I wanted to
look it up in Oxford Learner's to see if I had been whooshed. There were
no hits. The first suggestion was "arseholes".

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by jerryfriedman
MarSALES, VerSALES, MI-lan, etc.

Not too surprisingly, I pronounce Marseilles the French way, but I
spell it the English way.

I thought the English way was identical to the French,

Are you talking about the spelling or the pronunciation?

So far as the spelling is concerned, I dropped the final s when I was
first here, but I was corrected by a francophone Belgian member of an
international committee that I was secretary of when I used the French
spelling in a document in English.

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
so I wanted to
look it up in Oxford Learner's to see if I had been whooshed. There were
no hits. The first suggestion was "arseholes".

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Not too surprisingly, I pronounce Marseilles the French way, but I
spell it the English way.

I thought the English way was identical to the French,

Are you talking about the spelling or the pronunciation?

The spelling. I didn't notice the s.

[Hibou]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Not too surprisingly, I pronounce Marseilles the French way, but I
spell it the English way.

I thought the English way was identical to the French,

Are you talking about the spelling or the pronunciation?

The spelling. I didn't notice the s.

It pays to get it right. There are dungeons waiting in the Château d'If.

<https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C3%A2teau_d%27If>

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Hibou

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Are you talking about the spelling or the pronunciation?

The spelling. I didn't notice the s.

It pays to get it right. There are dungeons waiting in the Château d'If.
<https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C3%A2teau_d%27If>

It's possible to escape the Château, I believe, and one may end up very
rich.

[jerryfriedman]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Hibou

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Are you talking about the spelling or the pronunciation?

The spelling. I didn't notice the s.

It pays to get it right. There are dungeons waiting in the Château d'If.
<https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C3%A2teau_d%27If>

It's possible to escape the Château, I believe, and one may end up very
rich.

Dead easy, yew might say.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by jerryfriedman

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Hibou

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Are you talking about the spelling or the pronunciation?

The spelling. I didn't notice the s.

It pays to get it right. There are dungeons waiting in the Château d'If.
<https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C3%A2teau_d%27If>

It's possible to escape the Château, I believe, and one may end up very
rich.

Nowadays it's easy to escape from the Château (I've done it twice
myself). It didn't involve pretending to be dead and being thrown into
the sea. Just catching the ferry to the Quai des Belges was sufficient.

Post by jerryfriedman
Dead easy, yew might say.

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 27 Jun 2024 09:35:09 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by jerryfriedman

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
On Mon, 24 Jun 2024 21:27:00 +0200

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Phil Carmody

Post by Peter Moylan

Avoirdupois (/?æv?rd??p??z/)
Yeah, ^- that bit
I will confess to having always frenchified the pronunciation. Have

I

Post by Phil Carmody

Post by Peter Moylan

performed an overcorrection, or correctly reversed a horrific
mangling?

I too Frenchify the pronunciation, giving /&vwadipwa/.I'm not quite

sure

Post by Phil Carmody

Post by Peter Moylan
how to represent the "du" vowel in ASCII IPA. In any case, I use the
French pronunciation. I've never heard a non-French pronunciaition.

Thank goodness for that. I have to confess that I asked here hoping

for

Post by Phil Carmody
confirmation, but I would have been prepared to accept that some use
the to-me bizarrely-messed-up suggestion (which was from wikipedia).
I presume the origins of it are not far from the group which pronounce
Notre Dame no-ter-day-m.

Isn't that the standard pronunciation, for the University?

See Also
Kay-Ro and Ay-thens,

MarSALES, VerSALES, MI-lan, etc.

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
and Berk-lee/ the Berkshires (maybe; I've not
heard
a US person pronuunce UKE Berkshire (we^wthe London set say
'Baarksha')

I'd pronounce "Berkshire" in the UK with the "work" vowel.
When did this "Barkshire", "clark" thing get started anyway?

Also Varsity as a colloquial word for university.

In the US, "varsity" is a term used to describe a sports team where
the school has an "A side" and a "B side", with the "A side" being the
varsity. The "B side" is usually called the "Reserves".

[jerryfriedman]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 27 Jun 2024 09:35:09 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden

..

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by jerryfriedman
When did this "Barkshire", "clark" thing get started anyway?

Also Varsity as a colloquial word for university.

In the US, "varsity" is a term used to describe a sports team where
the school has an "A side" and a "B side", with the "A side" being the
varsity. The "B side" is usually called the "Reserves".

Or "junior varsity" (JV).

--
Jerry Friedman

[Steve Hayes]

On Thu, 27 Jun 2024 09:35:09 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Also Varsity as a colloquial word for university.

It seems to have been replaced in the UK and Australia by "uni",
though "varsity" is still, as far as I know, current in South Africa.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 27 Jun 2024 09:35:09 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Also Varsity as a colloquial word for university.

It seems to have been replaced in the UK and Australia by "uni",
though "varsity" is still, as far as I know, current in South Africa.

I used to think "uni" was purely Australian, but it seems to have
invaded the UK in recent decades.

[Janet]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 27 Jun 2024 09:35:09 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Also Varsity as a colloquial word for university.

perhaps not the ones constructed of red bricks

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Tony Cooper
It seems to have been replaced in the UK and Australia by "uni",
though "varsity" is still, as far as I know, current in South Africa.

I used to think "uni" was purely Australian, but it seems to have
invaded the UK in recent decades.

There was a point in Br E when "uni" was one of those
social markers, know what I mean, only used by people who
didn't go to university.
That's like so over, innit.

Janet

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Janet

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 27 Jun 2024 09:35:09 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Also Varsity as a colloquial word for university.

perhaps not the ones constructed of red bricks

The "Red Brick" universities I saw seemed to have far more concrete than
brick.

Post by Janet

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Tony Cooper
It seems to have been replaced in the UK and Australia by "uni",
though "varsity" is still, as far as I know, current in South Africa.

I used to think "uni" was purely Australian, but it seems to have
invaded the UK in recent decades.

There was a point in Br E when "uni" was one of those
social markers, know what I mean, only used by people who
didn't go to university.
That's like so over, innit.
Janet

[Ross Clark]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 27 Jun 2024 09:35:09 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Also Varsity as a colloquial word for university.

It seems to have been replaced in the UK and Australia by "uni",
though "varsity" is still, as far as I know, current in South Africa.

I have heard it in NZ, but from people my age or older.

In North America it was used in the 1920s, but now survives only in
traces such as the sports usage described by Tony.

In my youth it was known only as an archaic term, but survived in the
name of a cinema and several retailers in the area where we lived, close
to the university campus; also in the names of some student clubs.

The "varsity drag" was a novelty dance featured in the 1927 musical
"Good News". The film version (1930) has a dance scene which should be
on YouTube somewhere, and is well worth seeking out.

[Garrett Wollman]

In North America ["Varsity" = "university"] was used in the 1920s,
but now survives only in traces such as the sports usage described by
Tony.
In my youth it was known only as an archaic term, but survived in the
name of a cinema and several retailers in the area where we lived, close
to the university campus; also in the names of some student clubs.

"The Varsity" is a famous drive-in hot-dog restaurant (Wikipedia tells
me that car-side service ended in 2020) in Atlanta, named for its
proximity to Georgia Tech, which has since expanded to other
locations. I went there 15 or 20 years ago with friends, but we ate
inside rather than in our rental car.

-GAWollman

[jerryfriedman]

..

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by jerryfriedman
When did this "Barkshire", "clark" thing get started anyway?

Also Varsity as a colloquial word for university.

And some others. I can think of "sergeant", "parson", and the
non-standard "varmint" as examples that made it over here.

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by jerryfriedman
And how do you pronounce the rhyming slang "berk"?

The same way as you (except that I'm non-rhotic), which is curious, as
it's derived from Berkeley (rhyming slang from "Berkeley Hunt").
Berkhamsted, on the other hand, is not "barkəmsted", even though it's
in Hertfordshire ("hartfədshə"). The Oxford college is "harfəd" (no t).

As much trouble to keep track of as the different pronunciations of
Amherst, Newark, etc., in the U.S.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Steve Hayes]

Post by jerryfriedman
MarSALES, VerSALES, MI-lan, etc.

Eye-rack, Eye-ran.


I have to admit that I thought that that Jedi was pronounced
"Yair-dee" when I first saw it, until I saw the movie about 30 years
after it was first released.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by jerryfriedman
MarSALES, VerSALES, MI-lan, etc.

Eye-rack, Eye-ran.

Mos-cow to rhyme with moo-cow.

Although I must admit that we Australians also fail to enunciate the kva
at the end.

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Fri, 28 Jun 2024 16:22:15 +1000

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by jerryfriedman
MarSALES, VerSALES, MI-lan, etc.

Eye-rack, Eye-ran.

Mos-cow to rhyme with moo-cow.
Although I must admit that we Australians also fail to enunciate the kva
at the end.

You (Oz) can't pronounce 'Merthyr', eether.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
On Fri, 28 Jun 2024 16:22:15 +1000

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by jerryfriedman
MarSALES, VerSALES, MI-lan, etc.

Eye-rack, Eye-ran.

Mos-cow to rhyme with moo-cow.
Although I must admit that we Australians also fail to enunciate the kva
at the end.

So you end up with Musk, as in Elon? Note also that in Russian (Москва)
it's the kva (ква) that carries the stress, which is as important and
unpredictable in Russian as it is in English.

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
You (Oz) can't pronounce 'Merthyr', eether.

[Steve Hayes]

On Fri, 28 Jun 2024 10:55:16 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
On Fri, 28 Jun 2024 16:22:15 +1000

Post by Peter Moylan
Mos-cow to rhyme with moo-cow.
Although I must admit that we Australians also fail to enunciate the kva
at the end.

So you end up with Musk, as in Elon? Note also that in Russian (??????)
it's the kva (???) that carries the stress, which is as important and
unpredictable in Russian as it is in English.

And it should be Vla-DEE-mir, not VLA-dimmyr.

But the one that gets me is Kyiv. I look at the Cyrillic and think it
should be Kiyv, but no, it's the other way round.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Steve Hayes
On Fri, 28 Jun 2024 10:55:16 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

On Fri, 28 Jun 2024 16:22:15 +1000 Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan
Mos-cow to rhyme with moo-cow.
Although I must admit that we Australians also fail to
enunciate the kva at the end.

So you end up with Musk, as in Elon? Note also that in Russian
(??????) it's the kva (???) that carries the stress, which is as
important and unpredictable in Russian as it is in English.

No, we say mosko, with first-syllable stress, and pronunciation as in
all English-speaking countries outside North America.

I hear the first vowel in the Russian name as more of a schwa than a
musky vowel.

Post by Steve Hayes
And it should be Vla-DEE-mir, not VLA-dimmyr.

My name is Vladimir
And I came from Vladivostok
And I'm vlady vlady vlady glad I did.

Post by Steve Hayes
But the one that gets me is Kyiv. I look at the Cyrillic and think
it should be Kiyv, but no, it's the other way round.

Yes, I struggled with that one for a while. Eventually I decided I just
had to ignore the order of the letters in the Cyrillic spelling.
Actually, the Ukrainian spelling Київ makes sense if you think of it as a
word that a Russian might transcribe as Кийв, modulo some uncertainty
over whether the second vowel should be thought of as a vowel or a
semivowel.

A bit of googling gave me the impression that Ukrainian is a more
difficult language than Russian.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Steve Hayes
On Fri, 28 Jun 2024 10:55:16 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
On Fri, 28 Jun 2024 16:22:15 +1000

Post by Peter Moylan
Mos-cow to rhyme with moo-cow.
Although I must admit that we Australians also fail to enunciate the kva
at the end.

So you end up with Musk, as in Elon? Note also that in Russian (??????)
it's the kva (???) that carries the stress, which is as important and
unpredictable in Russian as it is in English.

And it should be Vla-DEE-mir, not VLA-dimmyr.
But the one that gets me is Kyiv. I look at the Cyrillic and think it
should be Kiyv, but no, it's the other way round.

Around the time when the war began I asked a Ukrainian colleague (who
is fluent in both Ukrainian and Russian) to say Kyiv/Kiev in both
languages. I had difficulty in hearing much difference between the two.

[Ross Clark]

Post by Steve Hayes
On Fri, 28 Jun 2024 10:55:16 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
On Fri, 28 Jun 2024 16:22:15 +1000

Post by Peter Moylan
Mos-cow to rhyme with moo-cow.
Although I must admit that we Australians also fail to enunciate the kva
at the end.

So you end up with Musk, as in Elon? Note also that in Russian (??????)
it's the kva (???) that carries the stress, which is as important and
unpredictable in Russian as it is in English.

And it should be Vla-DEE-mir, not VLA-dimmyr.
But the one that gets me is Kyiv. I look at the Cyrillic and think it
should be Kiyv, but no, it's the other way round.

Around the time when the war began I asked a Ukrainian colleague (who is
fluent in both Ukrainian and Russian) to say Kyiv/Kiev in both
languages. I had difficulty in hearing much difference between the two.

As well you might. Wiki represents the two as follows:

Ukrainian: Київ, romanized: Kyiv, pronounced [ˈkɪjiu̯]
Russian: Киев, romanized: Kiyev, pronounced [ˈkʲi(j)ɪf]

So the most conspicuous difference would be in the final consonant,
where the "v" is more like a [w] in Ukrainian, but devoiced to [f] in
Russian.

[jerryfriedman]

..

Post by Ross Clark

Post by Steve Hayes
But the one that gets me is Kyiv. I look at the Cyrillic and think it
should be Kiyv, but no, it's the other way round.

Around the time when the war began I asked a Ukrainian colleague (who is
fluent in both Ukrainian and Russian) to say Kyiv/Kiev in both
languages. I had difficulty in hearing much difference between the two.

Ukrainian: Київ, romanized: Kyiv, pronounced [ˈkɪjiu̯]
Russian: Киев, romanized: Kiyev, pronounced [ˈkʲi(j)ɪf]
So the most conspicuous difference would be in the final consonant,
where the "v" is more like a [w] in Ukrainian, but devoiced to [f] in
Russian.

But the most confusing difference (and I'll bet it's the one that gets
Steve) is that и represents [i] in Russian but [ɪ] in Ukrainian, which
has a different letter for [I]. The unaccented <e> gets reduced to
[ɪ] in Russian but, if I'm not mistaken, would not in Ukrainian.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by jerryfriedman
MarSALES, VerSALES, MI-lan, etc.

Eye-rack, Eye-ran.

Mos-cow to rhyme with moo-cow.
Although I must admit that we Australians also fail to enunciate
the kva at the end.

You (Oz) can't pronounce 'Merthyr', eether.

Tell me more. There's a town near here called Stanford Merthyr, abutting
onto one side of Kurri Kurri. We pronounce it [st&***@d mV"rTr]. Is that
wrong?

Googling found me "21 pronunciations of Merthyr Tydfil in British
English", so I suppose there are 21 different opinions on the correct
pronunciation. Unfortunately there's no audio on this computer, so I
wasn't able to hear any of them. You might be able to convince me to move
to a less capable computer to listen.

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Fri, 28 Jun 2024 21:41:02 +1000

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by jerryfriedman
MarSALES, VerSALES, MI-lan, etc.

Eye-rack, Eye-ran.

Mos-cow to rhyme with moo-cow.
Although I must admit that we Australians also fail to enunciate
the kva at the end.

You (Oz) can't pronounce 'Merthyr', eether.

Tell me more. There's a town near here called Stanford Merthyr, abutting
wrong?
Googling found me "21 pronunciations of Merthyr Tydfil in British
English", so I suppose there are 21 different opinions on the correct
pronunciation. Unfortunately there's no audio on this computer, so I
wasn't able to hear any of them. You might be able to convince me to move
to a less capable computer to listen.

I'm not up on (Ascii)IPA, but let's try Murth-ur, not 'Mether'

[wugi]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Phil Carmody
Avoirdupois (/ˌævərdəˈpɔɪz/)
Yeah,        ^- that bit
I will confess to having always frenchified the pronunciation. Have I
performed an overcorrection, or correctly reversed a horrific
mangling?

I too Frenchify the pronunciation, giving /&vwadipwa/.I'm not quite sure
how to represent the "du" vowel in ASCII IPA. In any case, I use the
French pronunciation. I've never heard a non-French pronunciaition.

Now this "du" is the bit that wouldn't need pronouncing like that, as it
is a mistaken spelling for "de".
You want
"avoirs de poi[d]s", goods of/by weight, rather than
"avoir du poi[d]s", to have weight.
Saying "avoir[s] d@ poids" is fine, that means.

https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=avoirdupois
(Moreover this "avoir" seems to echo mlat. averia, f. avarie, e. average)

[The Committee]

Post by Phil Carmody
Avoirdupois (/ˌævərdəˈpɔɪz/)
Yeah, ^- that bit

[WARNING] In the interest of public safety, all unattended words will be
taken away and destroyed.

By order of the Committee

[bertietaylor]

What does "gonna" mean?

[Peter Moylan]

Post by bertietaylor
What does "gonna" mean?

It's a misspelling of "goanna".

[Sn!pe]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by bertietaylor
What does "gonna" mean?

It's a misspelling of "goanna".

As the goanna with a STD said as he fell off the cliff:
"I'm a goner here".

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Sn!pe

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by bertietaylor
What does "gonna" mean?

It's a misspelling of "goanna".

"I'm a goner here".

That takes me right back to my primary school days.

Q. What did Davy Crockett say when his dog fell off a cliff?
A. Doggone.

[jerryfriedman]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by bertietaylor
What does "gonna" mean?

It's a misspelling of "goanna".

Which is a misspelling of "iguana", which is a misspelling of "I
wanna", short for "Mommy, I wanna big lizard!"

(I've just added "goanna" to the short list of Words I Bet The
Majority of Australians Think Are Indigenous, But They're Not,
along with "emu", "jabiru", and "jacana".)

[Phil Carmody]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by bertietaylor
What does "gonna" mean?

It's a misspelling of "goanna".

Guano!

Phil

[bertietaylor @novabbs.com.invalid (bertietaylor)]

What part of speech is "gonna" which seems a replacement of a gerund and
preposition?

[Bill Day]

Avoirdupois (/?æv?rd??p??z/)
Yeah, ^- that bit
I will confess to having always frenchified the pronunciation.
Have I performed an overcorrection, or correctly reversed a
horrific mangling?
Phil

avoirdupois /avwer-de-poiz'/
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language,