White-tablecloth restaurant

[occam]

"Over the course of the past twenty-one years I’ve opened and operated
five white-tablecloth restaurants; an urban barbecue joint; a feel-good
jazz club; a neo-roadside stand selling frozen custard, burgers, and hot
dogs; three modern museum cafés; and an off-premises, restaurant-quality
catering company."

This is part of a longer piece on the modern practices of the F&B ('food
and beverage') business.

The 'white-tablecloth' tag for a restaurant intrigued me, especially
given the wide range of examples listed. ("...neo-roadside stand selling
frozen custard, burgers, and hot dog." ?!)

I thought I would compile a hierarchy of restaurants to understand
'white tablecloth' better:

- 'food-trucks' (and other 'take-away's): a paper-napkin is all you get.
- 'greasy spoon' (motorway cafs): a bare tabletop, with paper napkins.
- fast-food restaurants (self-service e.g. McDonalds, with
paper-tablecloths, paper-napkins)
- family run restaurants (less formal, table service - but with
non-white tablecloths. Cloth napkins.)
- pop-up restaurants (trendy, with table service. Colour of Tablecloth
unknown?)
- white-tablecloth (fine & casual dining): white-tablecloth (by
definition); white cloth-napkins.
- ...
- Michelin-star restaurant (1, 2,...star); starched white tablecloths.
Ditto napkins.

(All comments - written on the back of a paper-napkin - to be sent to me
c/o the 'Greasy Spoon Caf'.)

[Snidely]

Post by occam
- fast-food restaurants (self-service e.g. McDonalds, with
paper-tablecloths, paper-napkins)

I have not encountered paper tablecloths (or a hyphen in that phrase)
at McDonalds or other fast food restaurants. If you get a serving
tray, there will likely be a place mat on the tray and the service
items and food will be placed on the place mat.

In-N-Out will give you a place mat even if you're in the drive-thru but
have specified eat-in-car (also, your food will be in a tray box rather
than a take-home bag).

/dps

[occam]

-  fast-food restaurants (self-service e.g. McDonalds, with
paper-tablecloths, paper-napkins)

I have not encountered paper tablecloths (or a hyphen in that phrase) at
McDonalds or other fast food restaurants.  If you get a serving tray,
there will likely be a place mat on the tray and the service items and
food will be placed on the place mat.

I have not been to a McDonalds for over 40 years. However I have seen
paper tablecloths in similar establishments, which get yanked away and a
new one slid into place. It is more than a place mat (or tray mat). A
disposable surface, which covers the whole of the tabletop.

[Snidely]

Post by occam

-  fast-food restaurants (self-service e.g. McDonalds, with
paper-tablecloths, paper-napkins)

I have not encountered paper tablecloths (or a hyphen in that phrase) at
McDonalds or other fast food restaurants.  If you get a serving tray,
there will likely be a place mat on the tray and the service items and
food will be placed on the place mat.

I have not been to a McDonalds for over 40 years. However I have seen
paper tablecloths in similar establishments, which get yanked away and a
new one slid into place. It is more than a place mat (or tray mat). A
disposable surface, which covers the whole of the tabletop.

I've seen that at barbecue places, and at a certain pasta chain, and
also at "pancake breakfast" special events in parks. I've not seen
that at a fast food emporium.

/dps

[Ken Blake]

Post by Snidely

Post by occam

-  fast-food restaurants (self-service e.g. McDonalds, with
paper-tablecloths, paper-napkins)

I have not encountered paper tablecloths (or a hyphen in that phrase) at
McDonalds or other fast food restaurants.  If you get a serving tray,
there will likely be a place mat on the tray and the service items and
food will be placed on the place mat.

I have not been to a McDonalds for over 40 years. However I have seen
paper tablecloths in similar establishments, which get yanked away and a
new one slid into place. It is more than a place mat (or tray mat). A
disposable surface, which covers the whole of the tabletop.

I've seen that at barbecue places, and at a certain pasta chain, and
also at "pancake breakfast" special events in parks. I've not seen
that at a fast food emporium.

Nor have I. The places where I've seen it most often have been in
Maryland where crabs are served with a mallet to break the shells
open.

If I remember correctly they weren't really paper tablecloths, but
rather a length from a roll of brown wrapping paper.

[bert]

Post by Snidely
--
"First thing in the morning, before I have coffee, I read the obits, If
I'm not in it, I'll have breakfast." -- Carl Reiner, to CBS News in 2015.

That quote is from some much earlier source. I remember
my father saying just such a thing fifty-odd years ago.

[occam]

Post by bert

Post by Snidely
--
"First thing in the morning, before I have coffee, I read the obits, If
I'm not in it, I'll have breakfast." -- Carl Reiner, to CBS News in 2015.

That quote is from some much earlier source. I remember
my father saying just such a thing fifty-odd years ago.

Here is the same quote, attributed to George Burns.

https://www.azquotes.com/quote/541261

The BrE version I have heard says: "The first thing I do each morning is
to read the obituaries in the Times. If I don’t see my name there, I go
make breakfast. "

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Snidely
--
"First thing in the morning, before I have coffee, I read the obits, If
I'm not in it, I'll have breakfast." -- Carl Reiner, to CBS News in 2015.

That quote is from some much earlier source. I remember
my father saying just such a thing fifty-odd years ago.

Maybe the British actor A. E. Matthews, or an American contractor named
Bill Comte, as I've mentioned to Snidely.

https://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/the_first_thing_i_do_each_morning

[Ross Clark]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Snidely
--
"First thing in the morning, before I have coffee, I read the obits, If
I'm not in it, I'll have breakfast." -- Carl Reiner, to CBS News in 2015.

That quote is from some much earlier source. I remember
my father saying just such a thing fifty-odd years ago.

Maybe the British actor A. E. Matthews, or an American contractor named
Bill Comte, as I've mentioned to Snidely.
https://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/the_first_thing_i_do_each_morning

Or someone even less widely celebrated (this emerged from 2020
discussion here):

"Uncle Billy" Wallace used to tell friends that this is the way he
started his day. As soon as he awakened in the morning, he would call
for the morning newspaper and scan the obituary columns. "If my name
wasn't in the obituaries, "Uncle Billy" would declare...I would get up,
eat breakfast, and get to work."

Congressional Record - House - 2287 [1957]
[Extension of Remarks of Hon.Arthur V.Watkins of Utah in the Senate]


https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=6qm7GORLWvcC&pg=PA2287&lpg=PA2287&dq=look+at+obituaries+if+my+name+is+not+on+it++I+get+up&source=bl&ots=L0X1I48Q0J&sig=ACfU3U39W5UWSDdTqi6ZzE9d4yitn8y0OA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiXjuDK5_3mAhVaIbcAHfAYCxAQ6AEwB3oECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=look%20at%2

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Ross Clark

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Snidely
--
"First thing in the morning, before I have coffee, I read the obits, If
I'm not in it, I'll have breakfast." -- Carl Reiner, to CBS News in 2015.

That quote is from some much earlier source. I remember
my father saying just such a thing fifty-odd years ago.

Maybe the British actor A. E. Matthews, or an American contractor named
Bill Comte, as I've mentioned to Snidely.
https://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/the_first_thing_i_do_each_morning

Or someone even less widely celebrated (this emerged from 2020
"Uncle Billy" Wallace used to tell friends that this is the way he
started his day. As soon as he awakened in the morning, he would call
for the morning newspaper and scan the obituary columns. "If my name
wasn't in the obituaries, "Uncle Billy" would declare...I would get up,
eat breakfast, and get to work."
Congressional Record - House - 2287 [1957]
[Extension of Remarks of Hon.Arthur V.Watkins of Utah in the Senate]
https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=6qm7GORLWvcC&pg=PA2287&lpg=PA2287&dq=look+at+obituaries+if+my+name+is+not+on+it++I+get+up&source=bl&ots=L0X1I48Q0J&sig=ACfU3U39W5UWSDdTqi6ZzE9d4yitn8y0OA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiXjuDK5_3mAhVaIbcAHfAYCxAQ6AEwB3oECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=look%20at%2

Thanks. I must have missed that or forgotten it when I brought up the Popik
article later in 2020.

[Snidely]

Post by bert

Post by Snidely
--
"First thing in the morning, before I have coffee, I read the obits, If
I'm not in it, I'll have breakfast." -- Carl Reiner, to CBS News in 2015.

That quote is from some much earlier source. I remember
my father saying just such a thing fifty-odd years ago.

Your father pre-plagarized Carl Reiner. AUE isn't the first place
PPization has happened.

/dps

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by occam
"Over the course of the past twenty-one years I’ve opened and operated
five white-tablecloth restaurants; an urban barbecue joint; a feel-good
jazz club; a neo-roadside stand selling frozen custard, burgers, and hot
dogs; three modern museum cafés; and an off-premises, restaurant-quality
catering company."
This is part of a longer piece on the modern practices of the F&B ('food
and beverage') business.
The 'white-tablecloth' tag for a restaurant intrigued me, especially
given the wide range of examples listed. ("...neo-roadside stand selling
frozen custard, burgers, and hot dog." ?!)

It looks as if you might think those were examples of white-tablecloth
restaurants, so I'll mention that they're not. The author has run twelve
businesses in the last twenty-one years. I hope he or she left them as
successes.

(Are there museum cafés that aren't modern?)

Post by occam
I thought I would compile a hierarchy of restaurants to understand
- 'food-trucks' (and other 'take-away's): a paper-napkin is all you get.
- 'greasy spoon' (motorway cafs): a bare tabletop, with paper napkins.
- fast-food restaurants (self-service e.g. McDonalds, with
paper-tablecloths, paper-napkins)
- family run restaurants (less formal, table service - but with
non-white tablecloths. Cloth napkins.)
- pop-up restaurants (trendy, with table service. Colour of Tablecloth
unknown?)
- white-tablecloth (fine & casual dining): white-tablecloth (by
definition); white cloth-napkins.
- ...
- Michelin-star restaurant (1, 2,...star); starched white tablecloths.
Ditto napkins.

I've seen "white tablecloth", and that's how I understand it. Well, I've
never noticed starch, but I don't think I've ever eaten in a Michelin-
star restaurant.

[occam]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by occam
"Over the course of the past twenty-one years I’ve opened and operated
five white-tablecloth restaurants; an urban barbecue joint; a feel-good
jazz club; a neo-roadside stand selling frozen custard, burgers, and hot
dogs; three modern museum cafés; and an off-premises, restaurant-quality
catering company."
This is part of a longer piece on the modern practices of the F&B ('food
and beverage') business.
The 'white-tablecloth' tag for a restaurant intrigued me, especially
given the wide range of examples listed. ("...neo-roadside stand selling
frozen custard, burgers, and hot dog." ?!)

It looks as if you might think those were examples of white-tablecloth
restaurants, so I'll mention that they're not. The author has run twelve
businesses in the last twenty-one years.

My opinion aside, it is the author who thinks that. "Over the course of
the past twenty-one years I’ve opened and operated five white-tablecloth
restaurants" and then he lists the examples, amongst which the example I
quoted.

Post by Jerry Friedman
(Are there museum cafés that aren't modern?)

'Modern museum cafes' I interpret as the cafes of modern museums.
Nevertheless, I suspect the British Museum (first opened in 1759), at
some stage had a cafe which was not what we consider 'modern'. What is
the issue here?

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by occam
I thought I would compile a hierarchy of restaurants to understand

<snip>

Post by Jerry Friedman
I've seen "white tablecloth", and that's how I understand it. Well, I've
never noticed starch, but I don't think I've ever eaten in a Michelin-
star restaurant.

Neither have I. However, I have dined in a high-class hotel restaurant
in London, where I felt the starch stiffness on my legs as the
tablecloth rubbed against my trousers. (Unfolding my napkins was also a
stiff affair.)

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by occam

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by occam
"Over the course of the past twenty-one years I’ve opened and operated
five white-tablecloth restaurants; an urban barbecue joint; a feel-good
jazz club; a neo-roadside stand selling frozen custard, burgers, and hot
dogs; three modern museum cafés; and an off-premises, restaurant-quality
catering company."
This is part of a longer piece on the modern practices of the F&B ('food
and beverage') business.
The 'white-tablecloth' tag for a restaurant intrigued me, especially
given the wide range of examples listed. ("...neo-roadside stand selling
frozen custard, burgers, and hot dog." ?!)

It looks as if you might think those were examples of white-tablecloth
restaurants, so I'll mention that they're not. The author has run twelve
businesses in the last twenty-one years.

My opinion aside, it is the author who thinks that. "Over the course of
the past twenty-one years I’ve opened and operated five white-tablecloth
restaurants" and then he lists the examples, amongst which the example I
quoted.

No, he doesn't think that. The semicolons separate items in a list, since
one item contains commas. The numbers don't match--what are the five
examples? And as you pointed out, nothing listed after "white-tablecloth
restaurants" is a white-tablecloth restaurant.

Post by occam

Post by Jerry Friedman
(Are there museum cafés that aren't modern?)

'Modern museum cafes' I interpret as the cafes of modern museums.
Nevertheless, I suspect the British Museum (first opened in 1759), at
some stage had a cafe which was not what we consider 'modern'.

Is the modernity of the museum relevant to running the café? And he's
only talking about the last 21 years, so what the British Museum had in
previous centuries is not relevant.

Post by occam
What is the issue here?

I'm wondering why he said "modern".

Post by occam

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by occam
I thought I would compile a hierarchy of restaurants to understand

<snip>

Post by Jerry Friedman
I've seen "white tablecloth", and that's how I understand it. Well, I've
never noticed starch, but I don't think I've ever eaten in a Michelin-
star restaurant.

Neither have I. However, I have dined in a high-class hotel restaurant
in London, where I felt the starch stiffness on my legs as the
tablecloth rubbed against my trousers. (Unfolding my napkins was also a
stiff affair.)

Huh. I don't see that as an advantage, but I guess I don't know.

[Ken Blake]

On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 08:09:24 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by occam

Post by Jerry Friedman

"Over the course of the past twenty-one years I’ve opened and operated
five white-tablecloth restaurants; an urban barbecue joint; a feel-good
jazz club; a neo-roadside stand selling frozen custard, burgers, and hot
dogs; three modern museum cafés; and an off-premises, restaurant-quality
catering company."
This is part of a longer piece on the modern practices of the F&B ('food
and beverage') business.
The 'white-tablecloth' tag for a restaurant intrigued me, especially
given the wide range of examples listed. ("...neo-roadside stand selling
frozen custard, burgers, and hot dog." ?!)

It looks as if you might think those were examples of white-tablecloth
restaurants, so I'll mention that they're not. The author has run twelve
businesses in the last twenty-one years.

My opinion aside, it is the author who thinks that. "Over the course of
the past twenty-one years I’ve opened and operated five white-tablecloth
restaurants" and then he lists the examples, amongst which the example I
quoted.

No, he doesn't think that. The semicolons separate items in a list, since
one item contains commas. The numbers don't match--what are the five
examples? And as you pointed out, nothing listed after "white-tablecloth
restaurants" is a white-tablecloth restaurant.

Yes. Reading it more carefully, I see that you're right. But at first,
I thought the same thing occam did.

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by occam

Post by Jerry Friedman
(Are there museum cafés that aren't modern?)

'Modern museum cafes' I interpret as the cafes of modern museums.
Nevertheless, I suspect the British Museum (first opened in 1759), at
some stage had a cafe which was not what we consider 'modern'.

Is the modernity of the museum relevant to running the café? And he's
only talking about the last 21 years, so what the British Museum had in
previous centuries is not relevant.

Post by occam
What is the issue here?

I'm wondering why he said "modern".

Post by occam

Post by Jerry Friedman

I thought I would compile a hierarchy of restaurants to understand

<snip>

Post by Jerry Friedman
I've seen "white tablecloth", and that's how I understand it. Well, I've
never noticed starch, but I don't think I've ever eaten in a Michelin-
star restaurant.

Neither have I. However, I have dined in a high-class hotel restaurant
in London, where I felt the starch stiffness on my legs as the
tablecloth rubbed against my trousers. (Unfolding my napkins was also a
stiff affair.)

Huh. I don't see that as an advantage, but I guess I don't know.

[musika]

Post by occam

Post by Jerry Friedman
It looks as if you might think those were examples of white-tablecloth
restaurants, so I'll mention that they're not. The author has run twelve
businesses in the last twenty-one years.

My opinion aside, it is the author who thinks that. "Over the course of
the past twenty-one years I’ve opened and operated five white-tablecloth
restaurants" and then he lists the examples, amongst which the example I
quoted.

I disagree. They are not examples but seven other establishments that
they have opened.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by occam

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by occam
"Over the course of the past twenty-one years I’ve opened and operated
five white-tablecloth restaurants; an urban barbecue joint; a feel-good
jazz club; a neo-roadside stand selling frozen custard, burgers, and hot
dogs; three modern museum cafés; and an off-premises, restaurant-quality
catering company."
This is part of a longer piece on the modern practices of the F&B ('food
and beverage') business.
The 'white-tablecloth' tag for a restaurant intrigued me, especially
given the wide range of examples listed. ("...neo-roadside stand selling
frozen custard, burgers, and hot dog." ?!)

It looks as if you might think those were examples of white-tablecloth
restaurants, so I'll mention that they're not. The author has run twelve
businesses in the last twenty-one years.

My opinion aside, it is the author who thinks that. "Over the course of
the past twenty-one years I’ve opened and operated five white-tablecloth
restaurants" and then he lists the examples, amongst which the example I
quoted.

That would only be the interpretation if there were a colon after "white-
tablecloth restaurants."

It is manifestly a list of six genres of food service, as is made perfectly
clear by the use of semicolons (occasioned by the list of items within
one of the entries).

Post by occam

Post by Jerry Friedman
(Are there museum cafés that aren't modern?)

'Modern museum cafes' I interpret as the cafes of modern museums.

Such as the Museum of Modern Art, the Guggenheim, the Whitney?

Post by occam
Nevertheless, I suspect the British Museum (first opened in 1759), at
some stage had a cafe which was not what we consider 'modern'. What is
the issue here?

The Jewish Museum until covid had a café operated by Russ and
Daughters, the Lower East Side appetizing store. The store's on-
premises restaurant has reopened since we were considering
visiting the Jewish Museum (the one on Fifth Avenue, not the
Museum of Jewish Heritage, which is in Battery Park and deals
mostly with Holocaust materials) and learned that its café was
closed. I don't know whether it has since reopened.

Post by occam

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by occam
I thought I would compile a hierarchy of restaurants to understand

<snip>

Post by Jerry Friedman
I've seen "white tablecloth", and that's how I understand it. Well, I've
never noticed starch, but I don't think I've ever eaten in a Michelin-
star restaurant.

Neither have I. However, I have dined in a high-class hotel restaurant
in London, where I felt the starch stiffness on my legs as the
tablecloth rubbed against my trousers. (Unfolding my napkins was also a
stiff affair.)

[Hibou]

Post by occam
"Over the course of the past twenty-one years I’ve opened and operated
five white-tablecloth restaurants; an urban barbecue joint; a feel-good
jazz club; a neo-roadside stand selling frozen custard, burgers, and hot
dogs; three modern museum cafés; and an off-premises, restaurant-quality
catering company."
This is part of a longer piece on the modern practices of the F&B ('food
and beverage') business.
The 'white-tablecloth' tag for a restaurant intrigued me, especially
given the wide range of examples listed. ("...neo-roadside stand selling
frozen custard, burgers, and hot dog." ?!) [...]

Some restaurants launder their tablecloths and some don't, I suppose.

Are there whiter-than-white-tablecloth restaurants? (There's always room
at the top.)

[occam]

Post by Hibou

Post by occam
"Over the course of the past twenty-one years I’ve opened and operated
five white-tablecloth restaurants; an urban barbecue joint; a feel-good
jazz club; a neo-roadside stand selling frozen custard, burgers, and hot
dogs; three modern museum cafés; and an off-premises, restaurant-quality
catering company."
This is part of a longer piece on the modern practices of the F&B ('food
and beverage') business.
The 'white-tablecloth' tag for a restaurant intrigued me, especially
given the wide range of examples listed. ("...neo-roadside stand selling
frozen custard, burgers, and hot dog." ?!) [...]

Some restaurants launder their tablecloths and some don't, I suppose.
Are there whiter-than-white-tablecloth restaurants? (There's always room
at the top.)

(see 'starched-white-tablecloth' restaurants. I can count the ones I've
been to on the three fingers of my left hand.)

[Silvano]

Post by occam
(see 'starched-white-tablecloth' restaurants. I can count the ones I've
been to on the three fingers of my left hand.)

Why "on _the_ three fingers"? Did you have two fingers amputated?

Non-linguistic curiosity: when people use their hands for counting, how
many people start with their left hand and how many with their right
hand? Is any significant difference known between left-handed people and
the rest? And between people using the Latin alphabet and those using
Arabic or other right-to-left writing systems?

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 17:29:06 +0200, Silvano

Post by Silvano

Post by occam
(see 'starched-white-tablecloth' restaurants. I can count the ones I've
been to on the three fingers of my left hand.)

Why "on _the_ three fingers"? Did you have two fingers amputated?
Non-linguistic curiosity: when people use their hands for counting, how
many people start with their left hand and how many with their right
hand? Is any significant difference known between left-handed people and
the rest? And between people using the Latin alphabet and those using
Arabic or other right-to-left writing systems?

In case you're engaged in a grant-subsidized study of this, I'm
left-handed and would count first on the fingers of my right hand.

There have been studies on which digit is used first. I start
closed-fist with my index finger, then my middle finger, then my
thumb, then ring, then pinkie.

Studies show that I am not a European, not Japanese, not Middle
Eastern, but could be Chinese.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2012/jun/26/count-fingers-brain

[occam]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 17:29:06 +0200, Silvano

Post by Silvano

Post by occam
(see 'starched-white-tablecloth' restaurants. I can count the ones I've
been to on the three fingers of my left hand.)

Why "on _the_ three fingers"? Did you have two fingers amputated?
Non-linguistic curiosity: when people use their hands for counting, how
many people start with their left hand and how many with their right
hand? Is any significant difference known between left-handed people and
the rest? And between people using the Latin alphabet and those using
Arabic or other right-to-left writing systems?

In case you're engaged in a grant-subsidized study of this, I'm
left-handed and would count first on the fingers of my right hand.
There have been studies on which digit is used first. I start
closed-fist with my index finger, then my middle finger, then my
thumb, then ring, then pinkie.
Studies show that I am not a European, not Japanese, not Middle
Eastern, but could be Chinese.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2012/jun/26/count-fingers-brain

From the article:

"Most Chinese people, and many North Americans, also use the closed-fist
system, but begin counting on an index finger, rather than the thumb."

So, you could also be a North American.

I, on the other hand, am neither Chinese nor N. American but still count
with a closed fist, index finger first. Except I start with my left
hand, because I am right handed.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 17:29:06 +0200, Silvano

Post by Silvano

Post by occam
(see 'starched-white-tablecloth' restaurants. I can count the ones I've
been to on the three fingers of my left hand.)

Why "on _the_ three fingers"? Did you have two fingers amputated?
Non-linguistic curiosity: when people use their hands for counting, how
many people start with their left hand and how many with their right
hand? Is any significant difference known between left-handed people and
the rest? And between people using the Latin alphabet and those using
Arabic or other right-to-left writing systems?

In case you're engaged in a grant-subsidized study of this, I'm
left-handed and would count first on the fingers of my right hand.
There have been studies on which digit is used first. I start
closed-fist with my index finger, then my middle finger, then my
thumb, then ring, then pinkie.

We all need to be tolerant of each other's ways, especially in matters that
are irrelevant to morality and effectiveness, but using your thumb in the
middle of the count is just wrong.

Post by Tony Cooper
Studies show that I am not a European, not Japanese, not Middle
Eastern, but could be Chinese.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2012/jun/26/count-fingers-brain

I use the correct North American method: (loosely) closed fist, index,
middle, ring, little, thumb. Right hand first usually, I think. (I'm right-handed.)

[Ken Blake]

On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 10:24:44 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 17:29:06 +0200, Silvano

Post by Silvano

Post by occam
(see 'starched-white-tablecloth' restaurants. I can count the ones I've
been to on the three fingers of my left hand.)

Why "on _the_ three fingers"? Did you have two fingers amputated?
Non-linguistic curiosity: when people use their hands for counting, how
many people start with their left hand and how many with their right
hand? Is any significant difference known between left-handed people and
the rest? And between people using the Latin alphabet and those using
Arabic or other right-to-left writing systems?

In case you're engaged in a grant-subsidized study of this, I'm
left-handed and would count first on the fingers of my right hand.
There have been studies on which digit is used first. I start
closed-fist with my index finger, then my middle finger, then my
thumb, then ring, then pinkie.

We all need to be tolerant of each other's ways, especially in matters that
are irrelevant to morality and effectiveness, but using your thumb in the
middle of the count is just wrong.

Post by Tony Cooper
Studies show that I am not a European, not Japanese, not Middle
Eastern, but could be Chinese.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2012/jun/26/count-fingers-brain

I use the correct North American method: (loosely) closed fist, index,
middle, ring, little, thumb. Right hand first usually, I think. (I'm right-handed.)

Or, if you're a classical guitarist, on the right hand it's I, M, A,
C, P.

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 10:24:44 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 17:29:06 +0200, Silvano

Post by Silvano

Post by occam
(see 'starched-white-tablecloth' restaurants. I can count the ones I've
been to on the three fingers of my left hand.)

Why "on _the_ three fingers"? Did you have two fingers amputated?
Non-linguistic curiosity: when people use their hands for counting, how
many people start with their left hand and how many with their right
hand? Is any significant difference known between left-handed people and
the rest? And between people using the Latin alphabet and those using
Arabic or other right-to-left writing systems?

In case you're engaged in a grant-subsidized study of this, I'm
left-handed and would count first on the fingers of my right hand.
There have been studies on which digit is used first. I start
closed-fist with my index finger, then my middle finger, then my
thumb, then ring, then pinkie.

I should also point out that the most common reason for me to hold up
fingers is to signal how many people are in my party to be seated at a
restaurant. Signaling "two" is as above, but signaling "four" skips
the thumb in the sequence above.

Post by Jerry Friedman
We all need to be tolerant of each other's ways, especially in matters that
are irrelevant to morality and effectiveness, but using your thumb in the
middle of the count is just wrong.

Post by Tony Cooper
Studies show that I am not a European, not Japanese, not Middle
Eastern, but could be Chinese.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2012/jun/26/count-fingers-brain

I use the correct North American method: (loosely) closed fist, index,
middle, ring, little, thumb. Right hand first usually, I think. (I'm right-handed.)

I have no idea of how dextrous you are, but when I try to raise my
ring finger from a closed fist, the pinkie wants to rise with it.
Hoping that signaling three is sufficient, I do the thumb instead of
the ring finger.

Oddly enough, if I start the count with the pinkie, the ring finger
remains stationary.

I do object to your use of "correct" there. I'm not going to go
ballistic over it, but I don't think there's "correct" or "incorrect"
method.

[Ken Blake]

On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 15:18:50 -0400, Tony Cooper

Post by Ken Blake
On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 10:24:44 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 17:29:06 +0200, Silvano

Post by Silvano

Post by occam
(see 'starched-white-tablecloth' restaurants. I can count the ones I've
been to on the three fingers of my left hand.)

Why "on _the_ three fingers"? Did you have two fingers amputated?
Non-linguistic curiosity: when people use their hands for counting, how
many people start with their left hand and how many with their right
hand? Is any significant difference known between left-handed people and
the rest? And between people using the Latin alphabet and those using
Arabic or other right-to-left writing systems?

In case you're engaged in a grant-subsidized study of this, I'm
left-handed and would count first on the fingers of my right hand.
There have been studies on which digit is used first. I start
closed-fist with my index finger, then my middle finger, then my
thumb, then ring, then pinkie.

I should also point out that the most common reason for me to hold up
fingers is to signal how many people are in my party to be seated at a
restaurant.

That's especially useful in a foreign country where you don't know the
language.

That reminds me that in Italy if two people go into a restaurant, one
of them usually says "siamo in due" ("we are in two"), not "siamo due"
("we are two").

Why is the "in" there? I don't know. Silvano, can you help?

Post by Ken Blake
Signaling "two" is as above, but signaling "four" skips
the thumb in the sequence above.

Post by Jerry Friedman
We all need to be tolerant of each other's ways, especially in matters that
are irrelevant to morality and effectiveness, but using your thumb in the
middle of the count is just wrong.

Post by Tony Cooper
Studies show that I am not a European, not Japanese, not Middle
Eastern, but could be Chinese.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2012/jun/26/count-fingers-brain

I use the correct North American method: (loosely) closed fist, index,
middle, ring, little, thumb. Right hand first usually, I think. (I'm right-handed.)

I have no idea of how dextrous you are, but when I try to raise my
ring finger from a closed fist, the pinkie wants to rise with it.
Hoping that signaling three is sufficient, I do the thumb instead of
the ring finger.
Oddly enough, if I start the count with the pinkie, the ring finger
remains stationary.
I do object to your use of "correct" there. I'm not going to go
ballistic over it, but I don't think there's "correct" or "incorrect"
method.

[Tony Cooper]

Post by Ken Blake
On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 15:18:50 -0400, Tony Cooper

Post by Ken Blake
On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 10:24:44 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman

Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 17:29:06 +0200, Silvano

Post by Silvano

Post by occam
(see 'starched-white-tablecloth' restaurants. I can count the ones I've
been to on the three fingers of my left hand.)

Why "on _the_ three fingers"? Did you have two fingers amputated?
Non-linguistic curiosity: when people use their hands for counting, how
many people start with their left hand and how many with their right
hand? Is any significant difference known between left-handed people and
the rest? And between people using the Latin alphabet and those using
Arabic or other right-to-left writing systems?

In case you're engaged in a grant-subsidized study of this, I'm
left-handed and would count first on the fingers of my right hand.
There have been studies on which digit is used first. I start
closed-fist with my index finger, then my middle finger, then my
thumb, then ring, then pinkie.

I should also point out that the most common reason for me to hold up
fingers is to signal how many people are in my party to be seated at a
restaurant.

That's especially useful in a foreign country where you don't know the
language.
That reminds me that in Italy if two people go into a restaurant, one
of them usually says "siamo in due" ("we are in two"), not "siamo due"
("we are two").

Which reminds me of being in Germany and placing my order with the
waitress saying "zwei bier, bitte". She immediately responded, in
English, "Coming right up".

[Silvano]

Post by Ken Blake
That reminds me that in Italy if two people go into a restaurant, one
of them usually says "siamo in due" ("we are in two"), not "siamo due"
("we are two").
Why is the "in" there? I don't know. Silvano, can you help?

Different languages follow different logics and use different idioms.

[Ken Blake]

On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 09:41:11 +0200, Silvano

Post by Silvano

Post by Ken Blake
That reminds me that in Italy if two people go into a restaurant, one
of them usually says "siamo in due" ("we are in two"), not "siamo due"
("we are two").
Why is the "in" there? I don't know. Silvano, can you help?

Different languages follow different logics and use different idioms.

Yes, of course, but sometimes there's a reason behind those idioms. I
was hoping there was one and you could explain it.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Ken Blake
On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 10:24:44 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 17:29:06 +0200, Silvano

Post by Silvano

Post by occam
(see 'starched-white-tablecloth' restaurants. I can count the ones I've
been to on the three fingers of my left hand.)

Why "on _the_ three fingers"? Did you have two fingers amputated?
Non-linguistic curiosity: when people use their hands for counting, how
many people start with their left hand and how many with their right
hand? Is any significant difference known between left-handed people and
the rest? And between people using the Latin alphabet and those using
Arabic or other right-to-left writing systems?

In case you're engaged in a grant-subsidized study of this, I'm
left-handed and would count first on the fingers of my right hand.
There have been studies on which digit is used first. I start
closed-fist with my index finger, then my middle finger, then my
thumb, then ring, then pinkie.

I should also point out that the most common reason for me to hold up
fingers is to signal how many people are in my party to be seated at a
restaurant. Signaling "two" is as above, but signaling "four" skips
the thumb in the sequence above.

Wow, when was the last time I did that?

My most common reason is telling someone in a noisy store how much of
something I want, for redundancy when saying the number.

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Jerry Friedman
We all need to be tolerant of each other's ways, especially in matters that
are irrelevant to morality and effectiveness, but using your thumb in the
middle of the count is just wrong.

Post by Tony Cooper
Studies show that I am not a European, not Japanese, not Middle
Eastern, but could be Chinese.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2012/jun/26/count-fingers-brain

I use the correct North American method: (loosely) closed fist, index,
middle, ring, little, thumb. Right hand first usually, I think. (I'm right-handed.)

I have no idea of how dextrous you are, but when I try to raise my
ring finger from a closed fist, the pinkie wants to rise with it.
Hoping that signaling three is sufficient, I do the thumb instead of
the ring finger.

Piano lessons in my yout' helped with that. On the other hand (still
the right hand), if you saw me try to draw with a mouse or a trackpad,
you'd say my dexterity is very low.

When I count on my fingers, my thumb holds down the next finger
that I'd use, the one that's on deck.

Post by Ken Blake
Oddly enough, if I start the count with the pinkie, the ring finger
remains stationary.

This is a matter of what tendon is on top of what, I believe. If I
lower my middle finger on either hand, the ring finger goes part of the
way with it.

Post by Ken Blake
I do object to your use of "correct" there. I'm not going to go
ballistic over it, but I don't think there's "correct" or "incorrect"
method.

I was using "correct" in the sense of "the way I do it". However, I
think it's the most common way here, and I've never noticed anyone
doing it your way.

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 12:48:56 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Ken Blake
On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 10:24:44 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman

Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 17:29:06 +0200, Silvano

Post by Silvano

Post by occam
(see 'starched-white-tablecloth' restaurants. I can count the ones I've
been to on the three fingers of my left hand.)

Why "on _the_ three fingers"? Did you have two fingers amputated?
Non-linguistic curiosity: when people use their hands for counting, how
many people start with their left hand and how many with their right
hand? Is any significant difference known between left-handed people and
the rest? And between people using the Latin alphabet and those using
Arabic or other right-to-left writing systems?

In case you're engaged in a grant-subsidized study of this, I'm
left-handed and would count first on the fingers of my right hand.
There have been studies on which digit is used first. I start
closed-fist with my index finger, then my middle finger, then my
thumb, then ring, then pinkie.

I should also point out that the most common reason for me to hold up
fingers is to signal how many people are in my party to be seated at a
restaurant. Signaling "two" is as above, but signaling "four" skips
the thumb in the sequence above.

Wow, when was the last time I did that?

I don't want to try to read any meaning into that, but - if I would -
the following come to mind:

1. You rarely visit restaurants where there is a host or hostess who
assigns you to a table.

2. You always make reservations in advance and give only your name.

3. You rarely dine out.

4. You usually dine alone and the host or hostess knows that you are
that sad man who never has a companion.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 12:48:56 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman

...

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Tony Cooper
I should also point out that the most common reason for me to hold up
fingers is to signal how many people are in my party to be seated at a
restaurant. Signaling "two" is as above, but signaling "four" skips
the thumb in the sequence above.

Wow, when was the last time I did that?

I don't want to try to read any meaning into that, but - if I would -
1. You rarely visit restaurants where there is a host or hostess who
assigns you to a table.
2. You always make reservations in advance and give only your name.
3. You rarely dine out.
4. You usually dine alone and the host or hostess knows that you are
that sad man who never has a companion.

1 and 3.

Also 5. I occasionally get carry-out with a friend. You know, if you sit
down to eat in a restaurant, there you are with all those people and no
mask on. I'm not that worried about Covid, maybe not as much as I
should be, but three of the people I see most often have high risk
factors.

And 6. Someone I'm with might tell the person at the desk how many
are in the party.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Tony Cooper
I don't want to try to read any meaning into that, but - if I would -
4. You usually dine alone and the host or hostess knows that you are
that sad man who never has a companion.

What a disgusting comment.

Post by Tony Cooper
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida
I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

And offensiveness.

[Quinn C]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Ken Blake
On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 10:24:44 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 17:29:06 +0200, Silvano

Post by Silvano

Post by occam
(see 'starched-white-tablecloth' restaurants. I can count the ones I've
been to on the three fingers of my left hand.)

Why "on _the_ three fingers"? Did you have two fingers amputated?
Non-linguistic curiosity: when people use their hands for counting, how
many people start with their left hand and how many with their right
hand? Is any significant difference known between left-handed people and
the rest? And between people using the Latin alphabet and those using
Arabic or other right-to-left writing systems?

In case you're engaged in a grant-subsidized study of this, I'm
left-handed and would count first on the fingers of my right hand.
There have been studies on which digit is used first. I start
closed-fist with my index finger, then my middle finger, then my
thumb, then ring, then pinkie.

I should also point out that the most common reason for me to hold up
fingers is to signal how many people are in my party to be seated at a
restaurant. Signaling "two" is as above, but signaling "four" skips
the thumb in the sequence above.

Wow, when was the last time I did that?
My most common reason is telling someone in a noisy store how much of
something I want, for redundancy when saying the number.

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Jerry Friedman
We all need to be tolerant of each other's ways, especially in matters that
are irrelevant to morality and effectiveness, but using your thumb in the
middle of the count is just wrong.

Post by Tony Cooper
Studies show that I am not a European, not Japanese, not Middle
Eastern, but could be Chinese.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2012/jun/26/count-fingers-brain

I use the correct North American method: (loosely) closed fist, index,
middle, ring, little, thumb. Right hand first usually, I think. (I'm right-handed.)

I have no idea of how dextrous you are, but when I try to raise my
ring finger from a closed fist, the pinkie wants to rise with it.
Hoping that signaling three is sufficient, I do the thumb instead of
the ring finger.

Piano lessons in my yout' helped with that. On the other hand (still
the right hand), if you saw me try to draw with a mouse or a trackpad,
you'd say my dexterity is very low.
When I count on my fingers, my thumb holds down the next finger
that I'd use, the one that's on deck.

Post by Ken Blake
Oddly enough, if I start the count with the pinkie, the ring finger
remains stationary.

This is a matter of what tendon is on top of what, I believe. If I
lower my middle finger on either hand, the ring finger goes part of the
way with it.

There's a significant difference between my two hands in this respect,
the little and ring fingers of the right hand being more strongly
joined. It conversely means I can do the Vulcan greeting very easily
with my right, less so with the left.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Quinn C
There's a significant difference between my two hands in this respect,
the little and ring fingers of the right hand being more strongly
joined. It conversely means I can do the Vulcan greeting very easily
with my right, less so with the left.

What is a Vulcan greeting?

[Richard Heathfield]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Quinn C
There's a significant difference between my two hands in this
respect,
the little and ring fingers of the right hand being more strongly
joined. It conversely means I can do the Vulcan greeting very
easily
with my right, less so with the left.

What is a Vulcan greeting?

See photograph at <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcan_salute>

[Silvano]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Quinn C
There's a significant difference between my two hands in this respect,
the little and ring fingers of the right hand being more strongly
joined. It conversely means I can do the Vulcan greeting very easily
with my right, less so with the left.

What is a Vulcan greeting?

Did Star Trek never make it to Denmark?
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcan_salute>

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Silvano
Did Star Trek never make it to Denmark?

Oh yes, but it didn't make it to me.

[Ken Blake]

On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 11:30:26 +0200, Silvano

Post by Silvano

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Quinn C
There's a significant difference between my two hands in this respect,
the little and ring fingers of the right hand being more strongly
joined. It conversely means I can do the Vulcan greeting very easily
with my right, less so with the left.

What is a Vulcan greeting?

Did Star Trek never make it to Denmark?
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcan_salute>

I knew that "Vulcan" meant it was related to Start Trek, but I didn't
know what a Vulcan greeting was. I'm in the minority, but I never
liked Star Trek and only watched it a couple of times.

[Tony Cooper]

Post by Ken Blake
On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 11:30:26 +0200, Silvano

Post by Silvano

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Quinn C
There's a significant difference between my two hands in this respect,
the little and ring fingers of the right hand being more strongly
joined. It conversely means I can do the Vulcan greeting very easily
with my right, less so with the left.

What is a Vulcan greeting?

Did Star Trek never make it to Denmark?
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcan_salute>

I knew that "Vulcan" meant it was related to Start Trek, but I didn't
know what a Vulcan greeting was. I'm in the minority, but I never
liked Star Trek and only watched it a couple of times.

I have never seen "Star Trek" or "Star Wars", but learned what the
Vulcan greeting was from watching "The Big Bang Theory". Klingon (the
language) is often mentioned on TBBT, and I assume that's from the
same show.

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 15:20:47 -0400

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Ken Blake
On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 11:30:26 +0200, Silvano

Post by Silvano

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Quinn C
There's a significant difference between my two hands in this respect,
the little and ring fingers of the right hand being more strongly
joined. It conversely means I can do the Vulcan greeting very easily
with my right, less so with the left.

What is a Vulcan greeting?

Did Star Trek never make it to Denmark?
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcan_salute>

I knew that "Vulcan" meant it was related to Start Trek, but I didn't
know what a Vulcan greeting was. I'm in the minority, but I never
liked Star Trek and only watched it a couple of times.

I have never seen "Star Trek" or "Star Wars", but learned what the
Vulcan greeting was from watching "The Big Bang Theory". Klingon (the
language) is often mentioned on TBBT, and I assume that's from the
same show.

Not to mention the extended rock-paper-scissors game

[Ken Blake]

On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 15:20:47 -0400, Tony Cooper

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Ken Blake
On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 11:30:26 +0200, Silvano

Post by Silvano

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Quinn C
There's a significant difference between my two hands in this respect,
the little and ring fingers of the right hand being more strongly
joined. It conversely means I can do the Vulcan greeting very easily
with my right, less so with the left.

What is a Vulcan greeting?

Did Star Trek never make it to Denmark?
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcan_salute>

I knew that "Vulcan" meant it was related to Start Trek, but I didn't
know what a Vulcan greeting was. I'm in the minority, but I never
liked Star Trek and only watched it a couple of times.

I have never seen "Star Trek" or "Star Wars", but learned what the
Vulcan greeting was from watching "The Big Bang Theory". Klingon (the
language) is often mentioned on TBBT, and I assume that's from the
same show.

I also watched "The Big Bang Theory" only a couple of times. I liked
it even less than Star Trek.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Tony Cooper
I have never seen "Star Trek" or "Star Wars", but learned what the
Vulcan greeting was from watching "The Big Bang Theory". Klingon (the
language) is often mentioned on TBBT, and I assume that's from the
same show.

Yes, the Starship Enterprise chases the Klingons around Uranus.

[Jerry Friedman]

...

Post by Quinn C

Post by Tony Cooper
Oddly enough, if I start the count with the pinkie, the ring finger
remains stationary.

This is a matter of what tendon is on top of what, I believe. If I
lower my middle finger on either hand, the ring finger goes part of the
way with it.

There's a significant difference between my two hands in this respect,
the little and ring fingers of the right hand being more strongly
joined. It conversely means I can do the Vulcan greeting very easily
with my right, less so with the left.

Good thing you never wanted to be a rabbi (I feel sure).

[Ken Blake]

On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 08:46:38 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman

Post by Jerry Friedman
...

Post by Quinn C

Post by Tony Cooper
Oddly enough, if I start the count with the pinkie, the ring finger
remains stationary.

This is a matter of what tendon is on top of what, I believe. If I
lower my middle finger on either hand, the ring finger goes part of the
way with it.

There's a significant difference between my two hands in this respect,
the little and ring fingers of the right hand being more strongly
joined. It conversely means I can do the Vulcan greeting very easily
with my right, less so with the left.

Good thing you never wanted to be a rabbi (I feel sure).

Do rabbis do that? Only with their left hand?

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Ken Blake
On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 08:46:38 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman

Post by Jerry Friedman
...

Post by Quinn C

Post by Tony Cooper
Oddly enough, if I start the count with the pinkie, the ring finger
remains stationary.

This is a matter of what tendon is on top of what, I believe. If I
lower my middle finger on either hand, the ring finger goes part of the
way with it.

There's a significant difference between my two hands in this respect,
the little and ring fingers of the right hand being more strongly
joined. It conversely means I can do the Vulcan greeting very easily
with my right, less so with the left.

Good thing you never wanted to be a rabbi (I feel sure).

Do rabbis do that? Only with their left hand?

With both hands, when blessing the congregation, and probably other
times.

https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/prayer-blessings-the-difference/

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Ken Blake
On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 08:46:38 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman

[Vulcan greeting]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Jerry Friedman
Good thing you never wanted to be a rabbi (I feel sure).

Do rabbis do that? Only with their left hand?

With both hands, when blessing the congregation, and probably other
times.
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/prayer-blessings-the-difference/

Wasn't its use suggested by famously Jewish Leonard Nimoy?

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Wasn't its use suggested by famously Jewish Leonard Nimoy?

That phrase sounds to me as though it comes straight from the pages of a
gossip magazine.

Query: Is it a phrase people would expect to hear in casual conversation?

[Ken Blake]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Wasn't its use suggested by famously Jewish Leonard Nimoy?

That phrase sounds to me as though it comes straight from the pages of a
gossip magazine.
Query: Is it a phrase people would expect to hear in casual conversation?

Not me. And by the way, I didn't knew he was Jewish (nor do I care).

[Tony Cooper]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Wasn't its use suggested by famously Jewish Leonard Nimoy?

That phrase sounds to me as though it comes straight from the pages of a
gossip magazine.
Query: Is it a phrase people would expect to hear in casual conversation?

It's the kind of statement that if I would use it here PTD would go
ballistic and claim I'm anti-semitic and a bigot.

I do wonder how any actor or comedian is "famously Jewish" today. Many
are Jewish, many are famous, but the combination?

Is PTD channeling "Steiner's Resort" from "The Marvelous Mrs Maisel"?

[Ken Blake]

On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 12:14:25 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Ken Blake
On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 08:46:38 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman

Post by Jerry Friedman
...

Post by Quinn C

Post by Tony Cooper
Oddly enough, if I start the count with the pinkie, the ring finger
remains stationary.

This is a matter of what tendon is on top of what, I believe. If I
lower my middle finger on either hand, the ring finger goes part of the
way with it.

There's a significant difference between my two hands in this respect,
the little and ring fingers of the right hand being more strongly
joined. It conversely means I can do the Vulcan greeting very easily
with my right, less so with the left.

Good thing you never wanted to be a rabbi (I feel sure).

Do rabbis do that? Only with their left hand?

With both hands, when blessing the congregation, and probably other
times.

Thanks. I never knew that, or if I did, I had forgotten. I haven't
seen rabbis often. I think I've been to three weddings, two funerals,
and three bar mitzvahs (all a long time ago) presided over by rabbis.
I never wanted go to any of them, but since they were relatives, I had
no choice.

Just in case it wasn't clear, my own wedding was not presided over by
a rabbi, even though both me and my wife are of Jewish ancestry.

[Quinn C]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Ken Blake
On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 08:46:38 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman

Post by Jerry Friedman
...

Post by Quinn C

Post by Tony Cooper
Oddly enough, if I start the count with the pinkie, the ring finger
remains stationary.

This is a matter of what tendon is on top of what, I believe. If I
lower my middle finger on either hand, the ring finger goes part of the
way with it.

There's a significant difference between my two hands in this respect,
the little and ring fingers of the right hand being more strongly
joined. It conversely means I can do the Vulcan greeting very easily
with my right, less so with the left.

Good thing you never wanted to be a rabbi (I feel sure).

Do rabbis do that? Only with their left hand?

With both hands, when blessing the congregation, and probably other
times.
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/prayer-blessings-the-difference/

So they're really Vulcan infiltrators. At least that explains the space
laser.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Quinn C

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Ken Blake
On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 08:46:38 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman

Post by Jerry Friedman
...

Post by Quinn C

Post by Tony Cooper
Oddly enough, if I start the count with the pinkie, the ring finger
remains stationary.

This is a matter of what tendon is on top of what, I believe. If I
lower my middle finger on either hand, the ring finger goes part of the
way with it.

There's a significant difference between my two hands in this respect,
the little and ring fingers of the right hand being more strongly
joined. It conversely means I can do the Vulcan greeting very easily
with my right, less so with the left.

Good thing you never wanted to be a rabbi (I feel sure).

Do rabbis do that? Only with their left hand?

With both hands, when blessing the congregation, and probably other
times.
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/prayer-blessings-the-difference/

So they're really Vulcan infiltrators. At least that explains the space
laser.

Highly logical.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Jerry Friedman
This is a matter of what tendon is on top of what, I believe. If I
lower my middle finger on either hand, the ring finger goes part of the
way with it.

If I lower any finger 'at the bottom', the neighbouring fingers will
follow, and that is caused by the pull in the tissue, something that
connot be practised away. But If I lower them in the first joint, the
neighbouring fingers remain unmoved except for the pinkie on my left
hand where the ring finger will follow. That is something that I
practised some years ago.

[Adam Funk]

Post by Jerry Friedman
I was using "correct" in the sense of "the way I do it". However, I
think it's the most common way here, and I've never noticed anyone
doing it your way.

That's the correct way to use "correct" in AUE, isn't it?

Anyway, for keeping track of a count, I use a system that I saw on TV
decades ago that goes up to 99 with two hands. RH = units, each finger
is 1, thumb is 5; LH = tens, each finger is 10, thumb is 50. But I
don't fold the fingers/thumbs over, just bend them down/sideways a
bit.

I couldn't remember exactly what the system was called, but I got
close enough to find it on the WWW: "chisanbop", of Korean origin (I
thought it was either Japanese or that):

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chisanbop>

The illustration there probably explains it better than what I wrote
above.

I've never seen the book or tried to do operations other than
incrementing or decrementing with it, though.

[Paul Wolff]

Post by Ken Blake
On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 10:24:44 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 17:29:06 +0200, Silvano

Post by Silvano

Post by occam
(see 'starched-white-tablecloth' restaurants. I can count the ones I've
been to on the three fingers of my left hand.)

Why "on _the_ three fingers"? Did you have two fingers amputated?
Non-linguistic curiosity: when people use their hands for counting, how
many people start with their left hand and how many with their right
hand? Is any significant difference known between left-handed people and
the rest? And between people using the Latin alphabet and those using
Arabic or other right-to-left writing systems?

In case you're engaged in a grant-subsidized study of this, I'm
left-handed and would count first on the fingers of my right hand.
There have been studies on which digit is used first. I start
closed-fist with my index finger, then my middle finger, then my
thumb, then ring, then pinkie.

I should also point out that the most common reason for me to hold up
fingers is to signal how many people are in my party to be seated at a
restaurant. Signaling "two" is as above, but signaling "four" skips
the thumb in the sequence above.

Post by Jerry Friedman
We all need to be tolerant of each other's ways, especially in matters that
are irrelevant to morality and effectiveness, but using your thumb in the
middle of the count is just wrong.

Post by Tony Cooper
Studies show that I am not a European, not Japanese, not Middle
Eastern, but could be Chinese.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2012/jun/26/count-fingers-brain

I use the correct North American method: (loosely) closed fist, index,
middle, ring, little, thumb. Right hand first usually, I think. (I'm right-handed.)

I have no idea of how dextrous you are, but when I try to raise my
ring finger from a closed fist, the pinkie wants to rise with it.
Hoping that signaling three is sufficient, I do the thumb instead of
the ring finger.
Oddly enough, if I start the count with the pinkie, the ring finger
remains stationary.

Considering that all the muscles for your fingers are stationed in your
forearm, and that your fingers are manipulated from there by a bunch of
tendons, when you do anything delicate with your fingers and thumbs it's
really a very skilful marionette show, with the puppeteer somewhere in
your brain. Unfortunately, the strings do get a little bit crossed
sometimes, to save on construction costs without evolutionary
disadvantage, so your pinkie sometimes has to dance to another finger's
tune.

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 22:43:12 +0100, Paul Wolff

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by Ken Blake
On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 10:24:44 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 17:29:06 +0200, Silvano

Post by Silvano

Post by occam
(see 'starched-white-tablecloth' restaurants. I can count the ones I've
been to on the three fingers of my left hand.)

Why "on _the_ three fingers"? Did you have two fingers amputated?
Non-linguistic curiosity: when people use their hands for counting, how
many people start with their left hand and how many with their right
hand? Is any significant difference known between left-handed people and
the rest? And between people using the Latin alphabet and those using
Arabic or other right-to-left writing systems?

In case you're engaged in a grant-subsidized study of this, I'm
left-handed and would count first on the fingers of my right hand.
There have been studies on which digit is used first. I start
closed-fist with my index finger, then my middle finger, then my
thumb, then ring, then pinkie.

I should also point out that the most common reason for me to hold up
fingers is to signal how many people are in my party to be seated at a
restaurant. Signaling "two" is as above, but signaling "four" skips
the thumb in the sequence above.

Post by Jerry Friedman
We all need to be tolerant of each other's ways, especially in matters that
are irrelevant to morality and effectiveness, but using your thumb in the
middle of the count is just wrong.

Post by Tony Cooper
Studies show that I am not a European, not Japanese, not Middle
Eastern, but could be Chinese.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2012/jun/26/count-fingers-brain

I use the correct North American method: (loosely) closed fist, index,
middle, ring, little, thumb. Right hand first usually, I think. (I'm right-handed.)

I have no idea of how dextrous you are, but when I try to raise my
ring finger from a closed fist, the pinkie wants to rise with it.
Hoping that signaling three is sufficient, I do the thumb instead of
the ring finger.
Oddly enough, if I start the count with the pinkie, the ring finger
remains stationary.

Considering that all the muscles for your fingers are stationed in your
forearm, and that your fingers are manipulated from there by a bunch of
tendons, when you do anything delicate with your fingers and thumbs it's
really a very skilful marionette show, with the puppeteer somewhere in
your brain. Unfortunately, the strings do get a little bit crossed
sometimes, to save on construction costs without evolutionary
disadvantage, so your pinkie sometimes has to dance to another finger's
tune.

So it's my forearm's fault that I can't manage chopsticks?

The wooden ones, not the piano one.

After finishing the "Extraordinary Attorney Woo" series on Netflix, I
had to try kimbaps. The Korean main character in the show ate kimbaps
(also spelled gimbaps) every day.

I stopped at a Korean restaurant and ordered one to go. (It's a single
long roll wrapped in dried seaweed and cut into several sushi-like
slices.) It came with two pair of wooden chopsticks.

Trying for authenticity, the chopsticks were employed. Mostly, they
served to spin, rather than lift, the slices.

Still, we managed. The kimbap was quite tasty.

https://www.seriouseats.com/gimbap-korean-seaweed-rice-rolls

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Paul Wolff
Considering that all the muscles for your fingers are stationed in your
forearm, and that your fingers are manipulated from there by a bunch of
tendons, when you do anything delicate with your fingers and thumbs it's
really a very skilful marionette show, with the puppeteer somewhere in
your brain. Unfortunately, the strings do get a little bit crossed
sometimes, to save on construction costs without evolutionary
disadvantage, so your pinkie sometimes has to dance to another finger's
tune.

However, because the transmission of neural messages to
the extremities is so slow, instrumentalists, typists, _and
handwriters_ have some sort of way of bypassing the brain
in order to play rapid passages, type fast, and write fluently.

How this is accomplished is not well understood.

[occam]

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Tony Cooper
In case you're engaged in a grant-subsidized study of this, I'm
left-handed and would count first on the fingers of my right hand.
There have been studies on which digit is used first. I start
closed-fist with my index finger, then my middle finger, then my
thumb, then ring, then pinkie.

I should also point out that the most common reason for me to hold up
fingers is to signal how many people are in my party to be seated at a
restaurant. Signaling "two" is as above, but signaling "four" skips
the thumb in the sequence above.

There is a scene in the Quentin Tarantino film "Inglorious Basterds"
(2009) when one of the characters gives away his non-German origins by
showing index-middle & ring finger to indicate 'three'. The Nazi
intelligence officer picks up on this subtlety by pointing out that a
true German would have used index-middle-and-thumb to do this.

Question: Is there any German blood in your ancestry, or did the
scriptwriters of the film get it totally wrong?

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by occam
There is a scene in the Quentin Tarantino film "Inglorious Basterds"

Yes, I thought about it too, and I have been wondering whether it is
true that there is this difference.

Post by occam
(2009) when one of the characters gives away his non-German origins by
showing index-middle & ring finger to indicate 'three'. The Nazi
intelligence officer picks up on this subtlety by pointing out that a
true German would have used index-middle-and-thumb to do this.
Question: Is there any German blood in your ancestry, or did the
scriptwriters of the film get it totally wrong?

I (Danish) use my thumb when I indicate a number. What do others do?

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by occam
There is a scene in the Quentin Tarantino film "Inglorious Basterds"

Yes, I thought about it too, and I have been wondering whether it is
true that there is this difference.

Post by occam
(2009) when one of the characters gives away his non-German origins by
showing index-middle & ring finger to indicate 'three'. The Nazi
intelligence officer picks up on this subtlety by pointing out that a
true German would have used index-middle-and-thumb to do this.
Question: Is there any German blood in your ancestry, or did the
scriptwriters of the film get it totally wrong?

I (Danish) use my thumb when I indicate a number. What do others do?

I don't use my thumb until I've run out of fingers.

[Tony Cooper]

On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 23:25:38 +1000, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by occam
There is a scene in the Quentin Tarantino film "Inglorious Basterds"

Yes, I thought about it too, and I have been wondering whether it is
true that there is this difference.

Post by occam
(2009) when one of the characters gives away his non-German origins by
showing index-middle & ring finger to indicate 'three'. The Nazi
intelligence officer picks up on this subtlety by pointing out that a
true German would have used index-middle-and-thumb to do this.
Question: Is there any German blood in your ancestry, or did the
scriptwriters of the film get it totally wrong?

I (Danish) use my thumb when I indicate a number. What do others do?

I don't use my thumb until I've run out of fingers.

One of my former roommates with born with some condition that caused
both of his thumbs to be permanently curled down. At an early age the
second joint of both thumbs was surgically removed.

One time, when he was signaling that he'd be ready to go by extending
all fingers and thumbs, I said "OK, you'll be ready in 9 minutes?"

When he questioned my figure I replied that 4 1/2 and 4 1/2 equal
nine.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Tony Cooper
One of my former roommates with born with some condition that caused
both of his thumbs to be permanently curled down. At an early age the
second joint of both thumbs was surgically removed.
One time, when he was signaling that he'd be ready to go by extending
all fingers and thumbs, I said "OK, you'll be ready in 9 minutes?"
When he questioned my figure I replied that 4 1/2 and 4 1/2 equal
nine.

Wow. You were a cruel SOB even back then,

Post by Tony Cooper
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida
I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

And sadism.

[Ken Blake]

On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 23:25:38 +1000, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by occam
There is a scene in the Quentin Tarantino film "Inglorious Basterds"

Yes, I thought about it too, and I have been wondering whether it is
true that there is this difference.

Post by occam
(2009) when one of the characters gives away his non-German origins by
showing index-middle & ring finger to indicate 'three'. The Nazi
intelligence officer picks up on this subtlety by pointing out that a
true German would have used index-middle-and-thumb to do this.
Question: Is there any German blood in your ancestry, or did the
scriptwriters of the film get it totally wrong?

I (Danish) use my thumb when I indicate a number. What do others do?

I don't use my thumb until I've run out of fingers.

I sometimes do that with my left hand (on the guitar).

[lar3ryca]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 17:29:06 +0200, Silvano

Post by Silvano

Post by occam
(see 'starched-white-tablecloth' restaurants. I can count the ones I've
been to on the three fingers of my left hand.)

Why "on _the_ three fingers"? Did you have two fingers amputated?
Non-linguistic curiosity: when people use their hands for counting, how
many people start with their left hand and how many with their right
hand? Is any significant difference known between left-handed people and
the rest? And between people using the Latin alphabet and those using
Arabic or other right-to-left writing systems?

In case you're engaged in a grant-subsidized study of this, I'm
left-handed and would count first on the fingers of my right hand.
There have been studies on which digit is used first. I start
closed-fist with my index finger, then my middle finger, then my
thumb, then ring, then pinkie.

We all need to be tolerant of each other's ways, especially in matters that
are irrelevant to morality and effectiveness, but using your thumb in the
middle of the count is just wrong.

Post by Tony Cooper
Studies show that I am not a European, not Japanese, not Middle
Eastern, but could be Chinese.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2012/jun/26/count-fingers-brain

I use the correct North American method: (loosely) closed fist, index,
middle, ring, little, thumb. Right hand first usually, I think. (I'm right-handed.)

I seldom count on my fingers, but when I do, I am not counting numbers.
I would be counting things, like names, or days of the week, or resistor
colour codes, etc.. For example, today is Thursday, the 14th, so if I
wanted to know how many days it is until many days until Sunday, I would
count , saying (or thinking), Wed, Thur, Fri, Sat, Sun. And I would
count not by raising fingers, but by placing them on a surface, starting
with the pinky, through to the thumb, then continuing on the same had,
to the thumb again (provided, of course, I needed to count higher than 5).

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by lar3ryca
I seldom count on my fingers, but when I do, I am not counting numbers.
I would be counting things, like names, or days of the week, or resistor
colour codes, etc.. For example, today is Thursday, the 14th, so if I
wanted to know how many days it is until many days until Sunday, I would
count , saying (or thinking), Wed, Thur, Fri, Sat, Sun. And I would
count not by raising fingers, but by placing them on a surface, starting
with the pinky, through to the thumb, then continuing on the same had,
to the thumb again (provided, of course, I needed to count higher than 5).

Or knuckles and the spaces between them - if you are trying to work out
how many days there are in March, for example.

[lar3ryca]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by lar3ryca
I seldom count on my fingers, but when I do, I am not counting
numbers. I would be counting things, like names, or days of the week,
or resistor colour codes, etc.. For example, today is Thursday, the
14th, so if I wanted to know how many days it is until many days until
Sunday, I would count , saying (or thinking), Wed, Thur, Fri, Sat,
Sun. And I would count not by raising fingers, but by placing them on
a surface, starting with the pinky, through to the thumb, then
continuing on the same had, to the thumb again (provided, of course, I
needed to count higher than 5).

Or knuckles and the spaces between them - if you are trying to work out
how many days there are in March, for example.

Because I don't count knuckles as fingers, I didn't mention that
technique. I use it often.

And even though I don't wear an analogue wristwatch, I use my phone to
find the time, and then use an imagined clock dial and the sun to figure
out which way north is.

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 15:53:15 -0600

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 17:29:06 +0200, Silvano

Post by Silvano

Post by occam
(see 'starched-white-tablecloth' restaurants. I can count the ones I've
been to on the three fingers of my left hand.)

Why "on _the_ three fingers"? Did you have two fingers amputated?
Non-linguistic curiosity: when people use their hands for counting, how
many people start with their left hand and how many with their right
hand? Is any significant difference known between left-handed people and
the rest? And between people using the Latin alphabet and those using
Arabic or other right-to-left writing systems?

In case you're engaged in a grant-subsidized study of this, I'm
left-handed and would count first on the fingers of my right hand.
There have been studies on which digit is used first. I start
closed-fist with my index finger, then my middle finger, then my
thumb, then ring, then pinkie.

We all need to be tolerant of each other's ways, especially in matters that
are irrelevant to morality and effectiveness, but using your thumb in the
middle of the count is just wrong.

Post by Tony Cooper
Studies show that I am not a European, not Japanese, not Middle
Eastern, but could be Chinese.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2012/jun/26/count-fingers-brain

I use the correct North American method: (loosely) closed fist, index,
middle, ring, little, thumb. Right hand first usually, I think. (I'm right-handed.)

I seldom count on my fingers, but when I do, I am not counting numbers.
I would be counting things, like names, or days of the week, or resistor
colour codes, etc.. For example, today is Thursday, the 14th, so if I
wanted to know how many days it is until many days until Sunday, I would
count , saying (or thinking), Wed, Thur, Fri, Sat, Sun. And I would
count not by raising fingers, but by placing them on a surface, starting
with the pinky, through to the thumb, then continuing on the same had,
to the thumb again (provided, of course, I needed to count higher than 5).

Octal is easy, just use the gaps.
Binary counting gets you to (gets calculator) 2^10. about a thousand.
(You have to get your socks off for higher figures)

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
Binary counting gets you to (gets calculator) 2^10. about a
thousand. (You have to get your socks off for higher figures)

Useful mnenomic: 2^10 = 10^3, approximately.

Once you've memorised this, you can quickly deduce the results for
nearby powers like 2^9 and 2^12. I assume, of course, that anyone who
regularly uses binary knows what the round numbers are.

Perhaps my mnenomic should have been: 2^10 is the nearest round number
to 10^3.

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 20:43:19 +1000

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
Binary counting gets you to (gets calculator) 2^10. about a
thousand. (You have to get your socks off for higher figures)

Useful mnenomic: 2^10 = 10^3, approximately.

Worth a whoosh, then.

Post by Peter Moylan
Once you've memorised this, you can quickly deduce the results for
nearby powers like 2^9 and 2^12. I assume, of course, that anyone who
regularly uses binary knows what the round numbers are.
Perhaps my mnenomic should have been: 2^10 is the nearest round number
to 10^3.

Mebi I know how big a Megabyte is (what? this *hasn't* been done to death
here?).

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Peter Moylan
Perhaps my mnenomic should have been: 2^10 is the nearest round number
to 10^3.

... for certain values of round.

[Richard Heathfield]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Peter Moylan
Perhaps my mnenomic should have been: 2^10 is the nearest round number
to 10^3.

... for certain values of round.

There's a lot of round in 10000000000.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Richard Heathfield

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Peter Moylan
Perhaps my mnenomic should have been: 2^10 is the nearest round number
to 10^3.

... for certain values of round.

There's a lot of round in 10000000000.

Yes, but what has that got to do with it?

[Richard Heathfield]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Richard Heathfield

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Peter Moylan
Perhaps my mnenomic should have been: 2^10 is the nearest
round number
to 10^3.

... for certain values of round.

There's a lot of round in 10000000000.

Yes, but what has that got to do with it?

2^0 = 1
2^1 = 10
2^2 = 100
2^3 = 1000
2^4 = 10000
2^5 = 100000
2^6 = 1000000
2^7 = 10000000
2^8 = 100000000
2^9 = 1000000000
2^10 = 10000000000

It helps if you've spent a lot of times around computers.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Richard Heathfield
It helps if you've spent a lot of times around computers.

I still think that Peter Moylan got the numbers switched.

And using two different bases in the same sentence without explicitly
saying so is not the best style.

[Quinn C]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 17:29:06 +0200, Silvano

Post by Silvano

Post by occam
(see 'starched-white-tablecloth' restaurants. I can count the ones I've
been to on the three fingers of my left hand.)

Why "on _the_ three fingers"? Did you have two fingers amputated?
Non-linguistic curiosity: when people use their hands for counting, how
many people start with their left hand and how many with their right
hand? Is any significant difference known between left-handed people and
the rest? And between people using the Latin alphabet and those using
Arabic or other right-to-left writing systems?

In case you're engaged in a grant-subsidized study of this, I'm
left-handed and would count first on the fingers of my right hand.
There have been studies on which digit is used first. I start
closed-fist with my index finger, then my middle finger, then my
thumb, then ring, then pinkie.

We all need to be tolerant of each other's ways, especially in matters that
are irrelevant to morality and effectiveness, but using your thumb in the
middle of the count is just wrong.

Post by Tony Cooper
Studies show that I am not a European, not Japanese, not Middle
Eastern, but could be Chinese.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2012/jun/26/count-fingers-brain

I use the correct North American method: (loosely) closed fist, index,
middle, ring, little, thumb. Right hand first usually, I think. (I'm right-handed.)

I start with the thumb of my right hand, and I think that's common in
Germany. Japanese people start with an open hand and use the other hand
to push down fingers, starting with the little finger, IIRC. So, pretty
much the exact opposite of what I do.

[Silvano]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 17:29:06 +0200, Silvano

Post by Silvano
Non-linguistic curiosity: when people use their hands for counting, how
many people start with their left hand and how many with their right
hand? Is any significant difference known between left-handed people and
the rest? And between people using the Latin alphabet and those using
Arabic or other right-to-left writing systems?

In case you're engaged in a grant-subsidized study of this, I'm
left-handed and would count first on the fingers of my right hand.
There have been studies on which digit is used first. I start
closed-fist with my index finger, then my middle finger, then my
thumb, then ring, then pinkie.
Studies show that I am not a European, not Japanese, not Middle
Eastern, but could be Chinese.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2012/jun/26/count-fingers-brain

Thank you for the interesting link. It's also fun to see so many
different ways to count with your fingers.
According to that Guardian article I am European, as I already knew. I
am left-handed, by the way, and I thought it natural for people to start
counting with their prevailing hand. Apparently I was wrong.

[Silvano]

Post by Tony Cooper
There have been studies on which digit is used first. I start
closed-fist with my index finger, then my middle finger, then my
thumb, then ring, then pinkie.

By the way, in which parts of the English-speaking world is "pinkie"
used? It's a new word to me, and that's one of the reasons why I read AUE.
Where do people say "little finger"?
Where do they say something else and what do they say?

[Tony Cooper]

On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 16:16:52 +0200, Silvano

Post by Silvano

Post by Tony Cooper
There have been studies on which digit is used first. I start
closed-fist with my index finger, then my middle finger, then my
thumb, then ring, then pinkie.

By the way, in which parts of the English-speaking world is "pinkie"
used? It's a new word to me, and that's one of the reasons why I read AUE.
Where do people say "little finger"?
Where do they say something else and what do they say?

I would usually use "little finger" when the subject is just that
finger: "I broke my little finger on my right hand when I fell last
week."

"Pinkie" works when the subject includes all of the fingers and the
thumb.

I don't think that it's a regional thing at all. Some people would
never use "pinkie", some people always use "pinkie", and some - like
me - use either "pinkie" or "little finger".

The above pertains to casual discussion (as this is) and not formal
writing.

[Ken Blake]

On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 10:27:20 -0400, Tony Cooper

Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 16:16:52 +0200, Silvano

Post by Silvano

Post by Tony Cooper
There have been studies on which digit is used first. I start
closed-fist with my index finger, then my middle finger, then my
thumb, then ring, then pinkie.

By the way, in which parts of the English-speaking world is "pinkie"
used? It's a new word to me, and that's one of the reasons why I read AUE.
Where do people say "little finger"?
Where do they say something else and what do they say?

I would usually use "little finger" when the subject is just that
finger: "I broke my little finger on my right hand when I fell last
week."
"Pinkie" works when the subject includes all of the fingers and the
thumb.
I don't think that it's a regional thing at all. Some people would
never use "pinkie", some people always use "pinkie", and some - like
me - use either "pinkie" or "little finger".

And some - like me - use either "pinky" or "little finger."

It apparently can be spelled either way.

I don't know about the rest of the English-speaking world, but it's
common in the US.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Silvano

Post by Tony Cooper
There have been studies on which digit is used first. I start
closed-fist with my index finger, then my middle finger, then my
thumb, then ring, then pinkie.

By the way, in which parts of the English-speaking world is "pinkie"
used? It's a new word to me, and that's one of the reasons why I read AUE.
Where do people say "little finger"?
Where do they say something else and what do they say?

Usu. spelled <pinky>. "Little finger" is more formal. There are
such names for each finger, that are not uniform everywhere,
and I've encountered rhymes or mnemonics for little kids.

Pointer, ?, ring finger, pinky are widespread.

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Silvano

Post by Tony Cooper
There have been studies on which digit is used first. I start
closed-fist with my index finger, then my middle finger, then my
thumb, then ring, then pinkie.

By the way, in which parts of the English-speaking world is "pinkie"
used? It's a new word to me, and that's one of the reasons why I read AUE.
Where do people say "little finger"?
Where do they say something else and what do they say?

My BrE does not include "pinky", nor have I heard it from other BrE
speakers. Little finger is the only term I would use or expect to here.
Might younger people pick up the US term from film & TV? Possibly.

[Tony Cooper]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Silvano

Post by Tony Cooper
There have been studies on which digit is used first. I start
closed-fist with my index finger, then my middle finger, then my
thumb, then ring, then pinkie.

By the way, in which parts of the English-speaking world is "pinkie"
used? It's a new word to me, and that's one of the reasons why I read AUE.
Where do people say "little finger"?
Where do they say something else and what do they say?

My BrE does not include "pinky", nor have I heard it from other BrE
speakers. Little finger is the only term I would use or expect to here.
Might younger people pick up the US term from film & TV? Possibly.

If it has not yet arrived in the UK, the term "pinky swear" or "pinky
promise" is on its way.

I think, however, that the term has made it to the UK but not to Sam
Plusnet.

https://www.benjaminmoorepaint.co.uk/colour-gallery/colour/pinky-swear/CSP-340/

About the spelling...I didn't give it any thought when I typed my
comment, but it seems that "pinky" is the common spelling. It's not a
word I've had ocassion to write before.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Silvano

Post by Tony Cooper
There have been studies on which digit is used first. I start
closed-fist with my index finger, then my middle finger, then my
thumb, then ring, then pinkie.

By the way, in which parts of the English-speaking world is "pinkie"
used? It's a new word to me, and that's one of the reasons why I read AUE.
Where do people say "little finger"?
Where do they say something else and what do they say?

My BrE does not include "pinky", nor have I heard it from other BrE
speakers. Little finger is the only term I would use or expect to here.
Might younger people pick up the US term from film & TV? Possibly.

If it has not yet arrived in the UK, the term "pinky swear" or "pinky
promise" is on its way.

...

Let's not forget the more or less standard "pinky ring".

--
Jerry Friedman

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 19:42:53 +0100

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Silvano

Post by Tony Cooper
There have been studies on which digit is used first. I start
closed-fist with my index finger, then my middle finger, then my
thumb, then ring, then pinkie.

By the way, in which parts of the English-speaking world is "pinkie"
used? It's a new word to me, and that's one of the reasons why I read AUE.
Where do people say "little finger"?
Where do they say something else and what do they say?

My BrE does not include "pinky", nor have I heard it from other BrE
speakers. Little finger is the only term I would use or expect to here.
Might younger people pick up the US term from film & TV? Possibly.

If someone thinks one finger is 'Pinky' I would enquire which of the
others is 'Perky'.

(Sing along now, children)

[It was never explained how they got the helium]

I wonder if any Dear Readers still has/ever had a Crackerjack pencil?

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 19:42:53 +0100

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Silvano

Post by Tony Cooper
There have been studies on which digit is used first. I start
closed-fist with my index finger, then my middle finger, then my
thumb, then ring, then pinkie.

By the way, in which parts of the English-speaking world is "pinkie"
used? It's a new word to me, and that's one of the reasons why I read AUE.
Where do people say "little finger"?
Where do they say something else and what do they say?

My BrE does not include "pinky", nor have I heard it from other BrE
speakers. Little finger is the only term I would use or expect to here.
Might younger people pick up the US term from film & TV? Possibly.

If someone thinks one finger is 'Pinky' I would enquire which of the
others is 'Perky'.
http://youtu.be/Xsr_k1wKSWI
(Sing along now, children)
[It was never explained how they got the helium]
I wonder if any Dear Readers still has/ever had a Crackerjack pencil?

Did they come in the bottom of a Crackerjack box?

(Anyone getting Stuck Meat Loaf Syndrome might try "Take Me Out to
the Ball Game".)

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 14:01:41 -0700 (PDT)

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 19:42:53 +0100

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Silvano

Post by Tony Cooper
There have been studies on which digit is used first. I start
closed-fist with my index finger, then my middle finger, then my
thumb, then ring, then pinkie.

By the way, in which parts of the English-speaking world is "pinkie"
used? It's a new word to me, and that's one of the reasons why I read AUE.
Where do people say "little finger"?
Where do they say something else and what do they say?

My BrE does not include "pinky", nor have I heard it from other BrE
speakers. Little finger is the only term I would use or expect to here.
Might younger people pick up the US term from film & TV? Possibly.

If someone thinks one finger is 'Pinky' I would enquire which of the
others is 'Perky'.
http://youtu.be/Xsr_k1wKSWI
(Sing along now, children)
[It was never explained how they got the helium]
I wonder if any Dear Readers still has/ever had a Crackerjack pencil?

Did they come in the bottom of a Crackerjack box?
(Anyone getting Stuck Meat Loaf Syndrome might try "Take Me Out to
the Ball Game".)

No Meatloaf, no more:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meat_Loaf

Are you thinking of

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 14:01:41 -0700 (PDT)

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 19:42:53 +0100

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Silvano

Post by Tony Cooper
There have been studies on which digit is used first. I start
closed-fist with my index finger, then my middle finger, then my
thumb, then ring, then pinkie.

By the way, in which parts of the English-speaking world is "pinkie"
used? It's a new word to me, and that's one of the reasons why I read AUE.
Where do people say "little finger"?
Where do they say something else and what do they say?

My BrE does not include "pinky", nor have I heard it from other BrE
speakers. Little finger is the only term I would use or expect to here.
Might younger people pick up the US term from film & TV? Possibly.

If someone thinks one finger is 'Pinky' I would enquire which of the
others is 'Perky'.
http://youtu.be/Xsr_k1wKSWI
(Sing along now, children)
[It was never explained how they got the helium]
I wonder if any Dear Readers still has/ever had a Crackerjack pencil?

Did they come in the bottom of a Crackerjack box?
(Anyone getting Stuck Meat Loaf Syndrome might try "Take Me Out to
the Ball Game".)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meat_Loaf

"Meat loaf /again/?"

OK, that was obscure. I think Adam Funk might get it.

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
Are you thinking of
http://youtu.be/a136H5K3OKw

Well, that's connected to both songs. I was thinking of "Two Out of Three
Ain't Bad" (and I'm not mean enough to provide a Youtube link).

"You'll never find your gold on a sandy beach
You'll never drill for oil on a city street
I know you're looking for a ruby in a mountain of rocks
But there ain't no Coup de Ville
Hiding at the bottom of a Cracker Jack box."

"Cracker Jack" is right--I misspelled it.

I'm shocked to learn that the only worthless thing in a Cracker Jack box
is the Cracker Jacks--there's no toy any more. Instead, according to
Wikipedia, there's a QR code on the box that lets you download a
baseball-themed game.

(I also have the vague feeling that I've been shocked to learn that before.)

Another shock, which I experienced a little while back: /Bat Out of Hell/
is one of the best-selling albums of all time.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Silvano

Post by Tony Cooper
There have been studies on which digit is used first. I start
closed-fist with my index finger, then my middle finger, then my
thumb, then ring, then pinkie.

By the way, in which parts of the English-speaking world is "pinkie"
used? It's a new word to me, and that's one of the reasons why I
read AUE. Where do people say "little finger"? Where do they say
something else and what do they say?

I understand the word, but I think of it as primarily American. I say
"little finger" - and so do Americans when they're being formal.

Now, to a guitarist the fingers of the right hand are called (starting
with the thumb) p i m a , and the little finger has no name at all. The
reason for those labels is obvious to anyone who knows Latin.

When it comes to toes, children learn to recite (starting with the big toe)
This little piggy went to market
This little piggy stayed home
This little piggy had roast beef
This little piggy had none
And this little piggy had ten beers
And went wee, wee, wee all the way home.

So, if you have a problem with your middle toe, a podiatrist will
understand if you say it's the one that had roast beef.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Silvano

Post by occam
(see 'starched-white-tablecloth' restaurants. I can count the ones I've
been to on the three fingers of my left hand.)

Why "on _the_ three fingers"? Did you have two fingers amputated?

Now it can be told: "occam" is the pseudonym of Django Reinhart.
Or, perhaps, the celebrated Chicago baseball pitcher Mordecai
"Three-finger" Brown.

Post by Silvano
Non-linguistic curiosity: when people use their hands for counting, how
many people start with their left hand and how many with their right
hand? Is any significant difference known between left-handed people and
the rest? And between people using the Latin alphabet and those using
Arabic or other right-to-left writing systems?

I point with my right index finger to the left fingers. Seems natural
for a right-handed person.

[David Kleinecke]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Silvano

Post by occam
(see 'starched-white-tablecloth' restaurants. I can count the ones I've
been to on the three fingers of my left hand.)

Why "on _the_ three fingers"? Did you have two fingers amputated?

Now it can be told: "occam" is the pseudonym of Django Reinhart.
Or, perhaps, the celebrated Chicago baseball pitcher Mordecai
"Three-finger" Brown.

Post by Silvano
Non-linguistic curiosity: when people use their hands for counting, how
many people start with their left hand and how many with their right
hand? Is any significant difference known between left-handed people and
the rest? And between people using the Latin alphabet and those using
Arabic or other right-to-left writing systems?

I point with my right index finger to the left fingers. Seems natural
for a right-handed person.

I hold my right hand palm up, make a fist and flip fingers out as I
count. Over five I akso use my left hand.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Silvano
Non-linguistic curiosity: when people use their hands for counting,
how many people start with their left hand and how many with their
right hand? Is any significant difference known between left-handed
people and the rest? And between people using the Latin alphabet
and those using Arabic or other right-to-left writing systems?

I point with my right index finger to the left fingers. Seems
natural for a right-handed person.

Pointing is the only good method once you get past ten. Unless you have
very flexible toes, I suppose.

[Richard Heathfield]

Post by Peter Moylan

On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 11:29:16 AM UTC-4, Silvano

Post by Silvano
Non-linguistic curiosity: when people use their hands for
counting,
how many people start with their left hand and how many with
their
right hand? Is any significant difference known between
left-handed
people and the rest? And between people using the Latin alphabet
and those using Arabic or other right-to-left writing systems?

I point with my right index finger to the left fingers. Seems
natural for a right-handed person.

Pointing is the only good method once you get past ten. Unless
you have
very flexible toes, I suppose.

Ten is rather unambitious, is it not? I can manage up to (just
over) a thousand without resorting to toes.

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 07:42:05 +0100

Post by Richard Heathfield

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Silvano
Non-linguistic curiosity: when people use their hands for
counting,
how many people start with their left hand and how many with their
right hand? Is any significant difference known between
left-handed
people and the rest? And between people using the Latin alphabet
and those using Arabic or other right-to-left writing systems?

I point with my right index finger to the left fingers. Seems
natural for a right-handed person.

Pointing is the only good method once you get past ten. Unless you have
very flexible toes, I suppose.

Ten is rather unambitious, is it not? I can manage up to (just
over) a thousand without resorting to toes.

Doh! I've bin pre-plagiarised again!

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Silvano
Non-linguistic curiosity: when people use their hands for counting,
how many people start with their left hand and how many with their
right hand? Is any significant difference known between left-handed
people and the rest? And between people using the Latin alphabet
and those using Arabic or other right-to-left writing systems?

I point with my right index finger to the left fingers. Seems
natural for a right-handed person.

Pointing is the only good method once you get past ten. Unless you have
very flexible toes, I suppose.

I was thinking of a different sort of counting from the other
responders.

The "Colbert Questionert" [sic; should be Questionnert, no?] is a
set of 15 questions by which, Stephen Colbert claims, he can get
to "really know" a celebrity in a way that can't be done in the usual
brief interview. (They use prerecorded ones to fill out shows.)

I noticed that they seem not to always include 15 questions, so
I've started counting them; and Tuesday night, when he didn't
do a new show because he was on the way back from the Emmy
Awards,

I found that I laid my open left hand flat and folded each
finger under as questions appeared, starting with the thumb, and
opening them in turn starting with 6.

(De Niro only got 12 questions; Ethan Hawke was the first one in a
long time to get the whole set of 15. I suspect that means that some
of the answers get cut from most of the sets for being uninteresting.
Also, de Niro was reading his answers -- presumably written by the
show's writers -- because they realize that even though he's very
popular, he's a lousy interview. Once he was on with Pacino to promote
something or other and barely said a word. On his own, he's the most
monosyllabic guest who's ever been asked back.)

[Tony Cooper]

On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 07:21:45 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Silvano
Non-linguistic curiosity: when people use their hands for counting,
how many people start with their left hand and how many with their
right hand? Is any significant difference known between left-handed
people and the rest? And between people using the Latin alphabet
and those using Arabic or other right-to-left writing systems?

I point with my right index finger to the left fingers. Seems
natural for a right-handed person.

Pointing is the only good method once you get past ten. Unless you have
very flexible toes, I suppose.

I was thinking of a different sort of counting from the other
responders.
The "Colbert Questionert" [sic; should be Questionnert, no?] is a
set of 15 questions by which, Stephen Colbert claims, he can get
to "really know" a celebrity in a way that can't be done in the usual
brief interview. (They use prerecorded ones to fill out shows.)
I noticed that they seem not to always include 15 questions, so
I've started counting them; and Tuesday night, when he didn't
do a new show because he was on the way back from the Emmy
Awards,
I found that I laid my open left hand flat and folded each
finger under as questions appeared, starting with the thumb, and
opening them in turn starting with 6.
(De Niro only got 12 questions; Ethan Hawke was the first one in a
long time to get the whole set of 15. I suspect that means that some
of the answers get cut from most of the sets for being uninteresting.
Also, de Niro was reading his answers -- presumably written by the
show's writers -- because they realize that even though he's very
popular, he's a lousy interview. Once he was on with Pacino to promote
something or other and barely said a word. On his own, he's the most
monosyllabic guest who's ever been asked back.)

I am not as obsessed with Colbert as you, but I did notice that De
Niro was not asked what one song he would listen to for the rest of
his life. I don't know what other two were omitted.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Silvano
Non-linguistic curiosity: when people use their hands for counting, how
many people start with their left hand and how many with their right
hand?

I start with my right hand, with the little finger and I start with an
open hand. My ancestors quite a long way back are all Danish.

I am primarily right-handed but can relatively easily switch to my left
for many tasks.

[Tony Cooper]

Post by Hibou

"Over the course of the past twenty-one years I’ve opened and operated
five white-tablecloth restaurants; an urban barbecue joint; a feel-good
jazz club; a neo-roadside stand selling frozen custard, burgers, and hot
dogs; three modern museum cafés; and an off-premises, restaurant-quality
catering company."
This is part of a longer piece on the modern practices of the F&B ('food
and beverage') business.
The 'white-tablecloth' tag for a restaurant intrigued me, especially
given the wide range of examples listed. ("...neo-roadside stand selling
frozen custard, burgers, and hot dog." ?!) [...]

Some restaurants launder their tablecloths and some don't, I suppose.
Are there whiter-than-white-tablecloth restaurants? (There's always room
at the top.)

I met a man in Chicago who told me an interesting tale about Chicago
restaurants and tablecloths.

In the early 1950s, he drove a truck for a Chicago laundry service
that picked up, laundered, and delivered cloth tablecloths, napkins,
and other items for restaurants.

He said the laundry was "mob owned". Restaurants who hestitated to
use their service experienced fires, random inspections from the
health department, and other disruptions. Any other firm attempting
to get the restaurant's laundry contract experienced flattened tires
on their truck or employees who suddenly decided to seek other
employment.

I had no reason to doubt his story.

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 10:16:08 +0200

Post by occam
"Over the course of the past twenty-one years I’ve opened and operated
five white-tablecloth restaurants; an urban barbecue joint; a feel-good
jazz club; a neo-roadside stand selling frozen custard, burgers, and hot
dogs; three modern museum cafés; and an off-premises, restaurant-quality
catering company."
This is part of a longer piece on the modern practices of the F&B ('food
and beverage') business.
The 'white-tablecloth' tag for a restaurant intrigued me, especially
given the wide range of examples listed. ("...neo-roadside stand selling
frozen custard, burgers, and hot dog." ?!)
I thought I would compile a hierarchy of restaurants to understand
- 'food-trucks' (and other 'take-away's): a paper-napkin is all you get.
- 'greasy spoon' (motorway cafs): a bare tabletop, with paper napkins.
- fast-food restaurants (self-service e.g. McDonalds, with
paper-tablecloths, paper-napkins)
- family run restaurants (less formal, table service - but with
non-white tablecloths. Cloth napkins.)
- pop-up restaurants (trendy, with table service. Colour of Tablecloth
unknown?)
- white-tablecloth (fine & casual dining): white-tablecloth (by
definition); white cloth-napkins.
- ...
- Michelin-star restaurant (1, 2,...star); starched white tablecloths.
Ditto napkins.
(All comments - written on the back of a paper-napkin - to be sent to me
c/o the 'Greasy Spoon Caf'.)

There is, indeed a caff on usenet;

xpost added for fun

[RustyHinge]

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 10:16:08 +0200

Post by occam
"Over the course of the past twenty-one years I’ve opened and operated
five white-tablecloth restaurants; an urban barbecue joint; a feel-good
jazz club; a neo-roadside stand selling frozen custard, burgers, and hot
dogs; three modern museum cafés; and an off-premises, restaurant-quality
catering company."
This is part of a longer piece on the modern practices of the F&B ('food
and beverage') business.
The 'white-tablecloth' tag for a restaurant intrigued me, especially
given the wide range of examples listed. ("...neo-roadside stand selling
frozen custard, burgers, and hot dog." ?!)

Frozen custard is virtually 'hokey-pokey', wot me muvver useter molish
just after the whoar. IIRC the trick was to whisk the custard as it was
beginning to freeze, or it would freeze into a big custardy lolly.

Toofsome, so it was - ie, you get to keep some of your toofs.

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John

Post by occam
I thought I would compile a hierarchy of restaurants to understand
- 'food-trucks' (and other 'take-away's): a paper-napkin is all you get.
- 'greasy spoon' (motorway cafs): a bare tabletop, with paper napkins.
- fast-food restaurants (self-service e.g. McDonalds, with
paper-tablecloths, paper-napkins)
- family run restaurants (less formal, table service - but with
non-white tablecloths. Cloth napkins.)
- pop-up restaurants (trendy, with table service. Colour of Tablecloth
unknown?)
- white-tablecloth (fine & casual dining): white-tablecloth (by
definition); white cloth-napkins.

Frozen custard is virtually 'hokey-pokey', wot me muvver useter molish
just after the whoar. IIRC the trick was to whisk the custard as it was
beginning to freeze, or it would freeze into a big custardy lolly.

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John

Post by occam
- ...
- Michelin-star restaurant (1, 2,...star); starched white tablecloths.
Ditto napkins.
(All comments - written on the back of a paper-napkin - to be sent to me
c/o the 'Greasy Spoon Caf'.)

There is, indeed a caff on usenet;
xpost added for fun

Oh, hokey-cokey, cokey,
Oh hokey-pokey pokey...