"You ain't second to none"

[Sebastian Schack]

Hi everyone.

I read the expression "You ain't second to none" somewhere - and wonder what
it means exactly.
Well, I could easily tell from the context that the man who told the girl
that she "ain't second to none" certainly likes her and that it must be
meant as a compliment.

Am I right when I think that this expressions means that she's simply
the "best"? She isn't "second" compared to anyone else?

Thanks in advance.

Regards,
Sebastian

[Skitt]

Post by Sebastian Schack
Hi everyone.
I read the expression "You ain't second to none" somewhere - and
wonder what it means exactly.
Well, I could easily tell from the context that the man who told the
girl that she "ain't second to none" certainly likes her and that it
must be meant as a compliment.
Am I right when I think that this expressions means that she's simply
the "best"? She isn't "second" compared to anyone else?

Yup, colloquial double negative notwithstanding.

[Skitt]

Post by Skitt

Post by Sebastian Schack
I read the expression "You ain't second to none" somewhere - and
wonder what it means exactly.
Well, I could easily tell from the context that the man who told the
girl that she "ain't second to none" certainly likes her and that it
must be meant as a compliment.
Am I right when I think that this expressions means that she's simply
the "best"? She isn't "second" compared to anyone else?

Yup, colloquial double negative notwithstanding.

Sorry -- I should have called it a misused negative.

[Roland Hutchinson]

Post by Skitt

Post by Skitt

Post by Sebastian Schack
I read the expression "You ain't second to none" somewhere - and
wonder what it means exactly.
Well, I could easily tell from the context that the man who told the
girl that she "ain't second to none" certainly likes her and that it
must be meant as a compliment.
Am I right when I think that this expressions means that she's simply
the "best"? She isn't "second" compared to anyone else?

Yup, colloquial double negative notwithstanding.

Sorry -- I should have called it a misused negative.

It sure sounds like a double negative to me, equivalent to "You ain't second
to no one." Standard English without the double negative would then be
"You aren't second to anyone" or "You are second to no one" (or,
equivalently, "...are second to none").

[Skitt]

Post by Roland Hutchinson

Post by Skitt

Post by Skitt

Post by Sebastian Schack
I read the expression "You ain't second to none" somewhere - and
wonder what it means exactly.
Well, I could easily tell from the context that the man who told
the girl that she "ain't second to none" certainly likes her and
that it must be meant as a compliment.
Am I right when I think that this expressions means that she's
simply the "best"? She isn't "second" compared to anyone else?

Yup, colloquial double negative notwithstanding.

Sorry -- I should have called it a misused negative.

It sure sounds like a double negative to me, equivalent to "You ain't
second to no one." Standard English without the double negative
would then be "You aren't second to anyone" or "You are second to no
one" (or, equivalently, "...are second to none").

Well, yes, but not all double negatives are to be shunned. Some are quite
acceptable. I also think that different people define them differently for
that reason.

[Steve MacGregor]

Post by Skitt
Well, yes, but not all double negatives are to be shunned. Some are quite
acceptable. I also think that different people define them differently for
that reason.

An acceptable one would be, "You aren't second to no one."

Since "second to no one" means "the best", this would obviously mean,
"You are not the best."

There. A double negative, purposefully and correctly written.

[Skitt]

Post by Steve MacGregor

Post by Skitt
Well, yes, but not all double negatives are to be shunned. Some are
quite acceptable. I also think that different people define them
differently for that reason.

An acceptable one would be, "You aren't second to no one."
Since "second to no one" means "the best", this would obviously mean,
"You are not the best."
There. A double negative, purposefully and correctly written.

Right.

[Roland Hutchinson]

Post by Skitt

Post by Roland Hutchinson

Post by Skitt

Post by Skitt

Post by Sebastian Schack
I read the expression "You ain't second to none" somewhere - and
wonder what it means exactly.
Am I right when I think that this expressions means that she's
simply the "best"? She isn't "second" compared to anyone else?

Yup, colloquial double negative notwithstanding.

Sorry -- I should have called it a misused negative.

It sure sounds like a double negative to me, equivalent to "You ain't
second to no one." Standard English without the double negative
would then be "You aren't second to anyone" or "You are second to no
one" (or, equivalently, "...are second to none").

Well, yes, but not all double negatives are to be shunned.

That ain't no jive.

I "translated" into standard English simply to clarify what the meaning was
that I saw in the original. Of course it comes out in a whole 'nother
register!

Post by Skitt
Some are quite
acceptable. I also think that different people define them differently
for that reason.

[Bob Cunningham]

On Mon, 02 Oct 2006 20:51:27 +0200, Sebastian Schack

Post by Sebastian Schack
I read the expression "You ain't second to none" somewhere - and wonder what
it means exactly.
Well, I could easily tell from the context that the man who told the girl
that she "ain't second to none" certainly likes her and that it must be
meant as a compliment.
Am I right when I think that this expressions means that she's simply
the "best"? She isn't "second" compared to anyone else?

I think you're right, but it also seems it could be a
playful twisting of the familiar phrase "You are second to
none", which also means "You are the best".

Of course, unenlightened commentators will harp on the
double negative equaling a positive. It doesn't, really, in
the way people actually talk. The "double negative" is a
feature of the American Vulgate that deserves to be accepted
as standard usage, as it is in other languages. Its value
as an intensifier far outweighs the rare times when it might
be misunderstood.

[Don Phillipson]

Post by Bob Cunningham
On Mon, 02 Oct 2006 20:51:27 +0200, Sebastian Schack

Post by Sebastian Schack
I read the expression "You ain't second to none" somewhere - and wonder what
it means exactly. . . .
Am I right when I think that this expressions means that she's simply
the "best"? She isn't "second" compared to anyone else?

I think you're right, but it also seems it could be a
playful twisting of the familiar phrase "You are second to
none", which also means "You are the best".
Of course, unenlightened commentators will harp on the
double negative equaling a positive. It doesn't, really, in
the way people actually talk. The "double negative" is a
feature of the American Vulgate that deserves to be accepted
as standard usage, as it is in other languages. Its value
as an intensifier far outweighs the rare times when it might
be misunderstood.

BC may be right about the most common uses
but because this particular case seems to remain
ambiguous he has yet to explain it.

If American double negatives "deserve to be accepted"
we should be able to find a rule that tells us the
difference between intense emphasis and an error on the
speaker's part. I see no such rule here.

[CDB]

Don Phillipson wrote:
[...]

Post by Don Phillipson
If American double negatives "deserve to be accepted"
we should be able to find a rule that tells us the
difference between intense emphasis and an error on the
speaker's part.

Or precise logical use. Do you not have no apples in that basket?

Post by Don Phillipson
I see no such rule here.

[Steve MacGregor]

Post by CDB
Or precise logical use. Do you not have no apples in that basket?

I'm waiting for someone to say to me, "You ain't shit!"

Then I can ask back, "And I suppose you think *you* are?"

If he answers afirmatively, I get to laugh at him. "Okay. I'm not
shit, and you are. Gotcha."

[CDB]

Post by Steve MacGregor

Post by CDB
Or precise logical use. Do you not have no apples in that basket?

I'm waiting for someone to say to me, "You ain't shit!"
Then I can ask back, "And I suppose you think *you* are?"
If he answers afirmatively, I get to laugh at him. "Okay. I'm not
shit, and you are. Gotcha."

Edward Abbey, reporting from Flatrock (where it rains... like a
cow...), mentions a graffito in a bar washroom: "If you ain't a
cowboy, you ain't shit." "Think about it."

[Steve Hayes]

On Mon, 2 Oct 2006 16:12:37 -0400, "Don Phillipson"

Post by Don Phillipson
If American double negatives "deserve to be accepted"
we should be able to find a rule that tells us the
difference between intense emphasis and an error on the
speaker's part. I see no such rule here.

It sounds a bit like "I could care less" -- something that looks the opposite
of established usage yet meaning the same, to the speaker at least.

I first became aware of the other phrase at the time of the coronation of
Queen Elizabeth in the UK, when Scots started flaunting the slaogan "Elizabeth
the First, second to none."

[Bob Cunningham]

On Mon, 2 Oct 2006 16:12:37 -0400, "Don Phillipson"

Post by Don Phillipson

Post by Bob Cunningham
On Mon, 02 Oct 2006 20:51:27 +0200, Sebastian Schack

Post by Sebastian Schack
I read the expression "You ain't second to none"
somewhere - and wonder what it means exactly. . . .
Am I right when I think that this expressions means
that she's simply the "best"? She isn't "second"
compared to anyone else?

I think you're right, but it also seems it could be a
playful twisting of the familiar phrase "You are second to
none", which also means "You are the best".
Of course, unenlightened commentators will harp on the
double negative equaling a positive. It doesn't, really, in
the way people actually talk. The "double negative" is a
feature of the American Vulgate that deserves to be accepted
as standard usage, as it is in other languages. Its value
as an intensifier far outweighs the rare times when it might
be misunderstood.

BC may be right about the most common uses
but because this particular case seems to remain
ambiguous he has yet to explain it.

If there's any question of ambiguity, it's entirely absent
in speech, where intonation would clearly distinguish
between praise and deprecation.

I suppose we could contrive a reason for saying the
statement is ambiguous, but in real speech, can it really
be? Would someone with the intent to dis another person
really say "You ain't second to none"?

But many statements in English can be taken two ways,
however faultless their grammar is, if the recipient sets
his or her mind to it. For example, any expression of
sincere, mild praise can be taken to be damning by faint
praise.

Post by Don Phillipson
If American double negatives "deserve to be accepted"
we should be able to find a rule that tells us the
difference between intense emphasis and an error on the
speaker's part. I see no such rule here.

Emphasis doesn't have to be intense. There's no such thing
as an error in English usage. A "rule" might be that a
double negative should always be taken to be intensification
unless the writer or speaker leaves no doubt that it's not
meant to be.

[Arcadian Rises]

Bob Cunningham wrote:

[...]

Post by Bob Cunningham
Of course, unenlightened commentators will harp on the
double negative equaling a positive. It doesn't, really, in
the way people actually talk.

I won't harp on the double negative, I onloy ask you to substitute
"the best" to "second to none." What do you get? "You ain't the best".

Post by Bob Cunningham
The "double negative" is a
feature of the American Vulgate that deserves to be accepted
as standard usage, as it is in other languages. Its value
as an intensifier far outweighs the rare times when it might
be misunderstood.

I don't believe the OP's choice of title is a double negative in the
way you describe it above, or the example given by Donna, i.e. (approx)
"I don't get not money" . Actually, I don't believe it's a double
negative at all, because here the word "none" is not part of (the
second) negative.

[Bob Cunningham]

On 2 Oct 2006 17:24:39 -0700, "Arcadian Rises"

Post by Arcadian Rises
[...]

Post by Bob Cunningham
Of course, unenlightened commentators will harp on the
double negative equaling a positive. It doesn't, really, in
the way people actually talk.

I won't harp on the double negative, I onloy ask you to substitute
"the best" to "second to none." What do you get? "You ain't the best".

I suppose. But think of "You ain't second to none" as a
reassuring response to the plaintive "Anyway, I'm not second
to Joe, Pete, or Sam". "You ain't second to none" is then
fully equivalent to "You ain't second to nobody", which is
fully parallel to "You ain't afraid of nobody".

As I've implied in another posting, I doubt that a speaker
who wants to dis someone would say "You ain't second to
none". It's a clashing mixture of American Vulgate ("ain't)
with highbrow affectation ("second to none").

Post by Arcadian Rises

Post by Bob Cunningham
The "double negative" is a
feature of the American Vulgate that deserves to be accepted
as standard usage, as it is in other languages. Its value
as an intensifier far outweighs the rare times when it might
be misunderstood.

I don't believe the OP's choice of title is a double negative in the
way you describe it above, or the example given by Donna, i.e. (approx)
"I don't get not money" . Actually, I don't believe it's a double
negative at all, because here the word "none" is not part of (the
second) negative.

Tweechi zone.

[Donna Richoux]

Post by Sebastian Schack
Hi everyone.
I read the expression "You ain't second to none" somewhere - and wonder what
it means exactly.
Well, I could easily tell from the context that the man who told the girl
that she "ain't second to none" certainly likes her and that it must be
meant as a compliment.
Am I right when I think that this expressions means that she's simply
the "best"? She isn't "second" compared to anyone else?

Yes. This is a tricky one to explain, because it has the colloquial
double-negative that isn't really a double-negative.

You are familiar with the kind of slangy vernacular?

You ain't got no money
meaning
You have no money
or equally
You don't have any money

The first phrase has two negatives, "ain't" and "no," and -- in spite of
what you would do in standard English -- to make sense of it, you take
out *one* of the negatives. Either take out the "ain't" or take out the
"no" but not both.

So in your example, "You ain't second to none," the two negatives are
"ain't" and "none." You either take out the "ain't" or you take out the
"none":

You are second to none.
You ain't second to anyone.

Both mean, you are in first place, you are tops, you are the best.

[rzed]

Post by Donna Richoux

Post by Sebastian Schack
Hi everyone.
I read the expression "You ain't second to none" somewhere -
and wonder what it means exactly.
Well, I could easily tell from the context that the man who
told the girl that she "ain't second to none" certainly likes
her and that it must be meant as a compliment.
Am I right when I think that this expressions means that she's
simply the "best"? She isn't "second" compared to anyone else?

Yes. This is a tricky one to explain, because it has the
colloquial double-negative that isn't really a double-negative.
You are familiar with the kind of slangy vernacular?
You ain't got no money
meaning
You have no money
or equally
You don't have any money
The first phrase has two negatives, "ain't" and "no," and -- in
spite of what you would do in standard English -- to make sense
of it, you take out *one* of the negatives. Either take out the
"ain't" or take out the "no" but not both.
So in your example, "You ain't second to none," the two
negatives are "ain't" and "none." You either take out the
You are second to none.
You ain't second to anyone.
Both mean, you are in first place, you are tops, you are the
best.

You ain't half right.

[Roland Hutchinson]

Post by rzed

Post by Donna Richoux
So in your example, "You ain't second to none," the two
negatives are "ain't" and "none." You either take out the
You are second to none.
You ain't second to anyone.
Both mean, you are in first place, you are tops, you are the
best.

You ain't half right.

When Donna ain't half right, she ain't half right.

[Mark Brader]

Post by Donna Richoux
Yes. This is a tricky one to explain, because it has the colloquial
double-negative that isn't really a double-negative.

It *is* really a double negative -- one negative is "ain't" and the other
is "none". It just doesn't *mean* what a double negative would mean in
standard usage; in effect, the two negations add instead of cancelling.

[Sebastian Schack]

Thanks, you three.

[Arcadian Rises]

Post by Sebastian Schack
Thanks, you three.

I those three venerable auers, who are also native speakers of English,
told you that your titled subject is a compliment, trust them, and
don't look for no logic no more.

"you arin't second to none " and "you are second to none" is a perfect
paralel with the "I could care less" equivalence to "I couldn't care
less".

[Stuart Chapman]

Post by Sebastian Schack
Hi everyone.
I read the expression "You ain't second to none" somewhere - and wonder what
it means exactly.
Well, I could easily tell from the context that the man who told the girl
that she "ain't second to none" certainly likes her and that it must be
meant as a compliment.
Am I right when I think that this expressions means that she's simply
the "best"? She isn't "second" compared to anyone else?
Thanks in advance.
Regards,
Sebastian

To paraphrase The Whitlams:

You're a one-in-a-million girl, that means that there's 4 more like you
in New South Wales alone.

Stupot

[TakenEvent]

Post by Sebastian Schack
Hi everyone.
I read the expression "You ain't second to none" somewhere - and wonder what
it means exactly.
Well, I could easily tell from the context that the man who told the girl
that she "ain't second to none" certainly likes her and that it must be
meant as a compliment.
Am I right when I think that this expressions means that she's simply
the "best"? She isn't "second" compared to anyone else?
Thanks in advance.

This reminds me of the time that an acquaintance of mine decided to hit on a
friend of mine by complimenting her ass. Unfortunately, he didn't know as
much about photography equipment as he should have, because she wasn't at
all impressed by his comment that her ass was so nice he felt like running
to get his camera with a panoramic lens...