Discussion:
push the door to
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navi
2024-10-28 23:31:06 UTC
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1) Push the door to.
2) Pull the door to.
3) Put the door to.
4) Shut the door to.

Do these mean 'close the door' or 'Bring it to a position where it is
almost closed (the latch is touching the plate but the door can be
opened with a push)?

I thought it was the latter, but I found this:


https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=to


--
Gratefully,
Navi


Lost in the Twilight Zone of the English language
Obsessed with ambiguity
Interested in strange structures
Snidely
2024-10-29 00:21:44 UTC
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Post by navi
1) Push the door to.
2) Pull the door to.
3) Put the door to.
4) Shut the door to.
Do these mean 'close the door' or 'Bring it to a position where it is
almost closed (the latch is touching the plate but the door can be
opened with a push)?
https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=to
Definition 3 is most relevant, but you're dealing with elision here ...
the target of the preposition is omitted.

And 4) should be
4a) Shut the door.

/dps
--
The presence of this syntax results from the fact that SQLite is really
a Tcl extension that has escaped into the wild.
<http://www.sqlite.org/lang_expr.html>
mwgamera
2024-10-30 00:35:13 UTC
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Post by Snidely
Post by navi
1) Push the door to.
2) Pull the door to.
3) Put the door to.
4) Shut the door to.
Do these mean 'close the door' or 'Bring it to a position where it is
almost closed (the latch is touching the plate but the door can be
opened with a push)?
https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=to
Definition 3 is most relevant, but you're dealing with elision here ...
the target of the preposition is omitted.
Lexicographers apparently prefer to describe it in this use as an adverb
rather than a preposition. I think navi is referring to definition 2 of
the *adverb* in the AHD entry:

| 2. Into a shut or closed position: "pushed the door to."

Merriam-Webster also has a corresponding entry under adverb:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/to#dictionary-entry-2

| 3 a : into contact especially with the frame —used of a door or a window
| "the door snapped to"

Learner's dictionaries describe it this way:
OLD https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/to_3

| (usually of a door) in or into a closed position
| "Push the door to."

LDOCE https://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/to#to__32

| if a door is pushed to, it closes or almost closes
| "The wind blew the door to."


-k
Snidely
2024-10-30 08:06:21 UTC
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mwgamera suggested that ...
Post by mwgamera
Post by Snidely
Post by navi
1) Push the door to.
2) Pull the door to.
3) Put the door to.
4) Shut the door to.
Do these mean 'close the door' or 'Bring it to a position where it is
almost closed (the latch is touching the plate but the door can be
opened with a push)?
https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=to
Definition 3 is most relevant, but you're dealing with elision here ...
the target of the preposition is omitted.
Lexicographers apparently prefer to describe it in this use as an adverb
rather than a preposition. I think navi is referring to definition 2 of
Post by Snidely
2. Into a shut or closed position: "pushed the door to."
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/to#dictionary-entry-2
Post by Snidely
3 a : into contact especially with the frame —used of a door or a window
"the door snapped to"
OLD https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/to_3
Post by Snidely
(usually of a door) in or into a closed position
"Push the door to."
LDOCE https://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/to#to__32
Post by Snidely
if a door is pushed to, it closes or almost closes
"The wind blew the door to."
-k
Okay.

-d
--
"That's a good sort of hectic, innit?"

" Very much so, and I'd recommend the haggis wontons."
-njm
wugi
2024-10-29 01:10:59 UTC
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Post by navi
1) Push the door to.
2) Pull the door to.
3) Put the door to.
4) Shut the door to.
Do these mean 'close the door' or 'Bring it to a position where it is
almost closed (the latch is touching the plate but the door can be
opened with a push)?
https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=to
FWIW, 1) and 2) echo the Dutch expressions
Duw de deur toe [hardly used]
Trek de deur toe [more likely]
The usual form is
Doe de deur toe ("Do the door to")

"Toe" corresponds to this adverbial "to".
The prepositions for "to" are generally "(om) te" and "tot".

Other case where D. distinguishes adv. and prep.:
"mee" ("mede-") and "met" ~ "with".

Can occur combined, the adverb implying a (tacid) verb:
tot bloedens toe
tot daaraan toe
met mij mee(komen)
--
guido wugi
wugi
2024-10-29 01:23:32 UTC
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Post by wugi
Post by navi
1) Push the door to.
2) Pull the door to.
3) Put the door to.
4) Shut the door to.
Do these mean 'close the door' or 'Bring it to a position where it is
almost closed (the latch is touching the plate but the door can be
opened with a push)?
https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=to
FWIW, 1) and 2) echo the Dutch expressions
Duw de deur toe [hardly used]
Trek de deur toe [more likely]
The usual form is
Doe de deur toe ("Do the door to")
BTW I always wonder about the German expressions

"aufmachen", to open
(In Dutch "openmaken, opendoen".
"Opmaken" has several meanings but not: to open)

"aufschliessen", to unlock, open <>
"schliessen" : to close!?
(Dutch "opsluiten" = to lock up, incarcerate ;-)
--
guido wugi
wugi
2024-10-29 01:23:32 UTC
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Post by wugi
Post by navi
1) Push the door to.
2) Pull the door to.
3) Put the door to.
4) Shut the door to.
Do these mean 'close the door' or 'Bring it to a position where it is
almost closed (the latch is touching the plate but the door can be
opened with a push)?
https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=to
FWIW, 1) and 2) echo the Dutch expressions
Duw de deur toe [hardly used]
Trek de deur toe [more likely]
The usual form is
Doe de deur toe ("Do the door to")
BTW I always wonder about the German expressions

"aufmachen", to open
(In Dutch "openmaken, opendoen".
"Opmaken" has several meanings but not: to open)

"aufschliessen", to unlock, open <>
"schliessen" : to close!?
(Dutch "opsluiten" = to lock up, incarcerate ;-)
--
guido wugi
jerryfriedman
2024-10-30 22:37:00 UTC
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Post by wugi
Post by navi
1) Push the door to.
2) Pull the door to.
3) Put the door to.
4) Shut the door to.
Do these mean 'close the door' or 'Bring it to a position where it is
almost closed (the latch is touching the plate but the door can be
opened with a push)?
https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=to
FWIW, 1) and 2) echo the Dutch expressions
Duw de deur toe [hardly used]
Trek de deur toe [more likely]
The usual form is
Doe de deur toe ("Do the door to")
..

If that sounds anything like what I imagine, it's very
euphonious, like a wordless vocal. "Here comes the
sun (doe de deur toe)."

--
Jerry Friedman
Peter Moylan
2024-10-30 22:53:23 UTC
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Post by jerryfriedman
Post by wugi
FWIW, 1) and 2) echo the Dutch expressions
Duw de deur toe [hardly used]
Trek de deur toe [more likely]
The usual form is
Doe de deur toe ("Do the door to")
..
If that sounds anything like what I imagine, it's very
euphonious, like a wordless vocal. "Here comes the
sun (doe de deur toe)."
<like>
--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW
Sam Plusnet
2024-10-31 01:25:45 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by wugi
FWIW, 1) and 2) echo the Dutch expressions
Duw de deur toe [hardly used]
Trek de deur toe [more likely]
The usual form is
Doe de deur toe ("Do the door to")
..
If that sounds anything like what I imagine, it's very
euphonious, like a wordless vocal.  "Here comes the
sun (doe de deur toe)."
<like>
<shrug> "It's alright."
--
Sam Plusnet
Phil
2024-10-30 23:58:52 UTC
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Permalink
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by wugi
Post by navi
1) Push the door to.
2) Pull the door to.
3) Put the door to.
4) Shut the door to.
Do these mean 'close the door' or 'Bring it to a position where it is
almost closed (the latch is touching the plate but the door can be
opened with a push)?
https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=to
FWIW, 1) and 2) echo the Dutch expressions
Duw de deur toe [hardly used]
Trek de deur toe [more likely]
The usual form is
Doe de deur toe ("Do the door to")
..
If that sounds anything like what I imagine, it's very
euphonious, like a wordless vocal.  "Here comes the
sun (doe de deur toe)."
--
Jerry Friedman
Also reminds me of directions I saw somewhere (in NL) that pointed the
enquirer 'door die deur daar'
--
Phil B
wugi
2024-10-31 15:49:46 UTC
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*
Post by Phil
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by wugi
Post by navi
1) Push the door to.
2) Pull the door to.
3) Put the door to.
4) Shut the door to.
Do these mean 'close the door' or 'Bring it to a position where it is
almost closed (the latch is touching the plate but the door can be
opened with a push)?
https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=to
FWIW, 1) and 2) echo the Dutch expressions
Duw de deur toe [hardly used]
Trek de deur toe [more likely]
The usual form is
Doe de deur toe ("Do the door to")
..
If that sounds anything like what I imagine, it's very
euphonious, like a wordless vocal. "Here comes the
sun (doe de deur toe)."
Can you explain-me this?
Post by Phil
Post by jerryfriedman
--
Jerry Friedman
Also reminds me of directions I saw somewhere (in NL) that pointed
the enquirer 'door die deur daar'

Now "Here comes the sun (door die deur daar)"
that one could make sense.

Dat doet de deur dicht!

* (I don't see my first "sent" reply, so this retry, apologies if double)
--
guido wugi
jerryfriedman
2024-10-31 16:36:02 UTC
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Post by wugi
*
[closing a door in Dutch]
Post by wugi
Post by Phil
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by wugi
The usual form is
Doe de deur toe ("Do the door to")
..
If that sounds anything like what I imagine, it's very
euphonious, like a wordless vocal. "Here comes the
sun (doe de deur toe)."
Can you explain-me this?
I was referring to the Beatles song "Here Comes the Sun",
which contains the refrain,

"Here comes the sun (doo-doo-doo-doo),
Here comes the sun, and I say,
It's alright."

Sam referred to that last line.

Many people, including me, like that song, so if you
haven't heard it, you might try listening to it.

By the way, "explain me" is a common error in English
among speakers of many languages. "Explain" doesn't take
an indirect object. A minimal correction of your request
is "Can you explain this to me?" However, a native speaker
might well omit "to me".

Also, if "explain me" existed, it wouldn't have a hyphen.

(Well, it exists in senses like "explain why I am the
way I am". E.g., "Don't try to explain me, Anna. And
don't try to explain yourself. People just do... what
they do." --Gayle Friesen, /The Isabel Factor/ (2005).)
Post by wugi
Post by Phil
Post by jerryfriedman
--
Jerry Friedman
Also reminds me of directions I saw somewhere (in NL) that pointed
the enquirer 'door die deur daar'
Now "Here comes the sun (door die deur daar)"
that one could make sense.
Dat doet de deur dicht!
* (I don't see my first "sent" reply, so this retry, apologies if double)
I only see one version.

I'd say "hence this retry," or more likely, "so I tried
again" or something similar.

--
Jerry Friedman
Silvano
2024-10-31 18:52:39 UTC
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Post by jerryfriedman
By the way, "explain me" is a common error in English
among speakers of many languages. "Explain" doesn't take
an indirect object.
Don't you really mean: "Explain doesn't take a direct object"?
(Expressed by the accusative case in Latin, German, Russian and many
other languages.)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2024-10-31 19:01:46 UTC
Reply
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Post by Silvano
Post by jerryfriedman
By the way, "explain me" is a common error in English
among speakers of many languages. "Explain" doesn't take
an indirect object.
Don't you really mean: "Explain doesn't take a direct object"?
I think he meant exactly what he wrote.

Consider "He lent me a book:" "me" is an indirect object, "a book" is a
direct object
Post by Silvano
(Expressed by the accusative case in Latin, German, Russian and many
other languages.)
--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.
Silvano
2024-10-31 21:44:37 UTC
Reply
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Silvano
Post by jerryfriedman
By the way, "explain me" is a common error in English
among speakers of many languages. "Explain" doesn't take
an indirect object.
Don't you really mean: "Explain doesn't take a direct object"?
I think he meant exactly what he wrote.
Consider "He lent me a book:" "me" is an indirect object, "a book" is a
direct object
Post by Silvano
(Expressed by the accusative case in Latin, German, Russian and many
other languages.)
That's what I mean! In your sentence is "me" an INDIRECT object.

But "me" in the wrong "Explain me" would be a DIRECT object.

I don't know who makes the mistake Jerry complains about, but Italians
and Germans probably don't. We do explain something TO someone.
jerryfriedman
2024-11-01 01:06:01 UTC
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Post by Silvano
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Silvano
Post by jerryfriedman
By the way, "explain me" is a common error in English
among speakers of many languages. "Explain" doesn't take
an indirect object.
Don't you really mean: "Explain doesn't take a direct object"?
I think he meant exactly what he wrote.
Consider "He lent me a book:" "me" is an indirect object, "a book" is a
direct object
Post by Silvano
(Expressed by the accusative case in Latin, German, Russian and many
other languages.)
That's what I mean! In your sentence is "me" an INDIRECT object.
But "me" in the wrong "Explain me" would be a DIRECT object.
The incorrect "explain me" is the one in Guido's question:
"Can you explain-me this?" An indirect object.
Post by Silvano
I don't know who makes the mistake Jerry complains about, but Italians
and Germans probably don't. We do explain something TO someone.
Spanish speakers say it often.

Russian uses the dative with "explain", according to

https://storylearning.com/learn/russian/russian-tips/russian-dative-case

--
Jerry Friedman
Aidan Kehoe
2024-11-01 09:40:33 UTC
Reply
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Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Silvano
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Silvano
Post by jerryfriedman
By the way, "explain me" is a common error in English
among speakers of many languages. "Explain" doesn't take
an indirect object.
Don't you really mean: "Explain doesn't take a direct object"?
I think he meant exactly what he wrote.
Consider "He lent me a book:" "me" is an indirect object, "a book" is a
direct object
Post by Silvano
(Expressed by the accusative case in Latin, German, Russian and many
other languages.)
That's what I mean! In your sentence is "me" an INDIRECT object.
But "me" in the wrong "Explain me" would be a DIRECT object.
"Can you explain-me this?" An indirect object.
And we do use indirect objects with analagous verbs, “riddle me this,” “tell me
your problems.” It’s a quirk of that verb (and probably other Romance verbs)
that needs, tediously, to be learned by rote.

The native very for explain was apparently gerecenian, but reckon no longer has
this meaning.
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Silvano
I don't know who makes the mistake Jerry complains about, but Italians
and Germans probably don't. We do explain something TO someone.
Spanish speakers say it often.
Russian uses the dative with "explain", according to
https://storylearning.com/learn/russian/russian-tips/russian-dative-case
--
‘As I sat looking up at the Guinness ad, I could never figure out /
How your man stayed up on the surfboard after fourteen pints of stout’
(C. Moore)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2024-11-01 09:53:48 UTC
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Post by Aidan Kehoe
gerecenian
That's a new word for me, but I looked it up and see that it isn't one
you invented.
--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.
Snidely
2024-11-01 11:40:10 UTC
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Post by Aidan Kehoe
gerecenian
That's a new word for me, but I looked it up and see that it isn't one you
invented.
I reckon you are right about that.

/dps
--
Like the saint, the goddess is associated with wisdom, poetry, healing,
protection, blacksmithing, and domesticated animals ....
[Wikipedia]
Sam Plusnet
2024-11-01 18:29:37 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Aidan Kehoe
gerecenian
That's a new word for me, but I looked it up and see that it isn't one
you invented.
My (elderly) copy of the OED doesn't know it, but I suppose that accords
with its aim to only cover the 'new stuff', post 1066.
--
Sam Plusnet
wugi
2024-11-01 14:58:49 UTC
Reply
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Post by jerryfriedman
*
[closing a door in Dutch]
 >>> The usual form is
 >>> Doe de deur toe ("Do the door to")
 >> ..
 >>
 >> If that sounds anything like what I imagine, it's very
 >> euphonious, like a wordless vocal.  "Here comes the
 >> sun (doe de deur toe)."
Can you explain-me this?
I was referring to the Beatles song "Here Comes the Sun",
which contains the refrain,
"Here comes the sun (doo-doo-doo-doo),
Here comes the sun, and I say,
It's alright."
Sam referred to that last line.
Many people, including me, like that song, so if you
haven't heard it, you might try listening to it.
Thank you. I know some Beatlemania, but I'm of the near-extinguished
classicophilia species.
Post by jerryfriedman
By the way, "explain me" is a common error in English
among speakers of many languages.  "Explain" doesn't take
an indirect object.  A minimal correction of your request
is "Can you explain this to me?"  However, a native speaker
might well omit "to me".
Also, if "explain me" existed, it wouldn't have a hyphen.
I knew that there was a trap, the hyphen was a warning token ;)
Post by jerryfriedman
(Well, it exists in senses like "explain why I am the
way I am".  E.g., "Don't try to explain me, Anna. And
don't try to explain yourself. People just do... what
they do."  --Gayle Friesen, /The Isabel Factor/ (2005).)
As others have said, "me" vs. "to me" is a headache with English verbs.
Tell me more. Yet I'm told weirder things and given no reasons.
Post by jerryfriedman
 >> --
 >> Jerry Friedman
 >
 > Also reminds me of directions I saw somewhere (in NL) that pointed
the enquirer 'door die deur daar'
Now "Here comes the sun (door die deur daar)"
that one could make sense.
Whilst also echoing the Beatle song.
Better even in dialect:
Deu dei deu doe.
Post by jerryfriedman
Dat doet de deur dicht!
* (I don't see my first "sent" reply, so this retry, apologies if double)
I only see one version.
TB marked your post as "having got (my) reply", and my reply as "sent",
but it just wasn't.
Post by jerryfriedman
I'd say "hence this retry," or more likely, "so I tried
again" or something similar.
Yes, "hence" is fine, thanks. I'm accostumed though to using a slightly
divergent idiom, even in my mother tongue ;)
--
guido wugi
Sam Plusnet
2024-11-01 18:32:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by wugi
Post by jerryfriedman
*
[closing a door in Dutch]
 >>> The usual form is
 >>> Doe de deur toe ("Do the door to")
 >> ..
 >>
 >> If that sounds anything like what I imagine, it's very
 >> euphonious, like a wordless vocal.  "Here comes the
 >> sun (doe de deur toe)."
Can you explain-me this?
I was referring to the Beatles song "Here Comes the Sun",
which contains the refrain,
"Here comes the sun (doo-doo-doo-doo),
Here comes the sun, and I say,
It's alright."
Sam referred to that last line.
Many people, including me, like that song, so if you
haven't heard it, you might try listening to it.
Thank you. I know some Beatlemania, but I'm of the near-extinguished
classicophilia species.
For many young people today, "classical" probably covers anything from
Monteverdi to Lady Gaga.
--
Sam Plusnet
Snidely
2024-11-01 19:00:21 UTC
Reply
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Post by jerryfriedman
(Well, it exists in senses like "explain why I am the
way I am".  E.g., "Don't try to explain me, Anna. And
don't try to explain yourself. People just do... what
they do."  --Gayle Friesen, /The Isabel Factor/ (2005).)
As others have said, "me" vs. "to me" is a headache with English verbs. Tell
me more. Yet I'm told weirder things and given no reasons.
Sometimes even professional researchers can't give you a reason for why
some things in English turned out X and others NOT X. Something lost
in time, spreading from some obscure origin. I'd wager that there are
corners of your language that "just are", as well.

Sometimes when a reason has been found, it isn't known widely, so
again, that's just the way it's done and everybody [1] knows it.

[1] Native speakers and many non-natives who have spent a long time
hearing it [2].

[2] Growing up in the Pacific Northwest, I had a neighbor who was
German, but a US resident since the 1930s. His German accent got
stronger every year that I knew him.

/dps
--
Rule #0: Don't be on fire.
In case of fire, exit the building before tweeting about it.
(Sighting reported by Adam F)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2024-11-01 19:09:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Snidely
Post by wugi
Post by jerryfriedman
(Well, it exists in senses like "explain why I am the
way I am".  E.g., "Don't try to explain me, Anna. And
don't try to explain yourself. People just do... what
they do."  --Gayle Friesen, /The Isabel Factor/ (2005).)
As others have said, "me" vs. "to me" is a headache with English verbs.
Tell me more. Yet I'm told weirder things and given no reasons.
Sometimes even professional researchers can't give you a reason for why
some things in English turned out X and others NOT X. Something lost
in time, spreading from some obscure origin. I'd wager that there are
corners of your language that "just are", as well.
Sometimes when a reason has been found, it isn't known widely, so
again, that's just the way it's done and everybody [1] knows it.
[1] Native speakers and many non-natives who have spent a long time
hearing it [2].
[2] Growing up in the Pacific Northwest, I had a neighbor who was
German, but a US resident since the 1930s. His German accent got
stronger every year that I knew him.
Similar to your story:

Herbert Friedmann (now deceased, so I can mention him by name) was a
distinguished biochemist at the University of Chicago with a strong
interest in scientific history. I had corresponded with him for several
years before meeting him in 2006. His written English was completely
natural and idiomatic, so I was surprised that he still had a strong
German accent despite leaving Germany in 1938 (in circumstances that
one can imagine).
--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.
Kerr-Mudd, John
2024-11-01 20:23:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 1 Nov 2024 11:58:49 -0300
Post by wugi
Post by jerryfriedman
*
[closing a door in Dutch]
 >>> The usual form is
 >>> Doe de deur toe ("Do the door to")
 >> ..
 >>
 >> If that sounds anything like what I imagine, it's very
 >> euphonious, like a wordless vocal.  "Here comes the
 >> sun (doe de deur toe)."
Can you explain-me this?
I was referring to the Beatles song "Here Comes the Sun",
which contains the refrain,
"Here comes the sun (doo-doo-doo-doo),
Here comes the sun, and I say,
It's alright."
Sam referred to that last line.
Many people, including me, like that song, so if you
haven't heard it, you might try listening to it.
Thank you. I know some Beatlemania, but I'm of the near-extinguished
classicophilia species.
Post by jerryfriedman
By the way, "explain me" is a common error in English
among speakers of many languages.  "Explain" doesn't take
an indirect object.  A minimal correction of your request
is "Can you explain this to me?"  However, a native speaker
might well omit "to me".
Also, if "explain me" existed, it wouldn't have a hyphen.
I knew that there was a trap, the hyphen was a warning token ;)
Post by jerryfriedman
(Well, it exists in senses like "explain why I am the
way I am".  E.g., "Don't try to explain me, Anna. And
don't try to explain yourself. People just do... what
they do."  --Gayle Friesen, /The Isabel Factor/ (2005).)
As others have said, "me" vs. "to me" is a headache with English verbs.
Tell me more. Yet I'm told weirder things and given no reasons.
Post by jerryfriedman
 >> --
 >> Jerry Friedman
 >
 > Also reminds me of directions I saw somewhere (in NL) that pointed
the enquirer 'door die deur daar'
Now "Here comes the sun (door die deur daar)"
that one could make sense.
Whilst also echoing the Beatle song.
Deu dei deu doe.
IIRC, the Germans had a song the 'chorus' of which went (to my untrained
ears) -"Da da da"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Da_Da_Da

"lieb' dich nicht du liebst mich nicht aha aha aha"
Post by wugi
Post by jerryfriedman
Dat doet de deur dicht!
* (I don't see my first "sent" reply, so this retry, apologies if double)
I only see one version.
TB marked your post as "having got (my) reply", and my reply as "sent",
but it just wasn't.
Post by jerryfriedman
I'd say "hence this retry," or more likely, "so I tried
again" or something similar.
Yes, "hence" is fine, thanks. I'm accostumed though to using a slightly
divergent idiom, even in my mother tongue ;)
--
guido wugi
--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.
Silvano
2024-11-01 21:01:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
IIRC, the Germans had a song the 'chorus' of which went (to my untrained
ears) -"Da da da"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Da_Da_Da
Not only to your untrained ears, but also to the ears of every German
and foreigner who ever heard it.
It was a very catchy tune when I moved to Berlin and it still rings a
bell here.

BTW, the translation depends on the context, as I'd like to see*
engraved (A dictionary suggests "chiselled" instead. Your opinion,
please.) on my tombstone, of course in German, because I plan to die
here, but in most cases you can translate a German "da" with "there".

* What would you suggest instead of "see", as I'll never be able to see
it unless I pay someone to do it before I die?
jerryfriedman
2024-11-01 21:37:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Silvano
Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
IIRC, the Germans had a song the 'chorus' of which went (to my untrained
ears) -"Da da da"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Da_Da_Da
Not only to your untrained ears, but also to the ears of every German
and foreigner who ever heard it.
It was a very catchy tune when I moved to Berlin and it still rings a
bell here.
BTW, the translation depends on the context, as I'd like to see*
engraved (A dictionary suggests "chiselled" instead. Your opinion,
please.) on my tombstone, of course in German, because I plan to die
here, but in most cases you can translate a German "da" with "there".
I agree with "chiseled" (American spelling).
Post by Silvano
* What would you suggest instead of "see", as I'll never be able to see
it unless I pay someone to do it before I die?
"Have".

--
Jerry Friedman
wugi
2024-11-02 13:17:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
On Fri, 1 Nov 2024 11:58:49 -0300
Post by wugi
Post by jerryfriedman
*
[closing a door in Dutch]
 >>> The usual form is
 >>> Doe de deur toe ("Do the door to")
 >> ..
 >>
 >> If that sounds anything like what I imagine, it's very
 >> euphonious, like a wordless vocal.  "Here comes the
 >> sun (doe de deur toe)."
Can you explain-me this?
I was referring to the Beatles song "Here Comes the Sun",
which contains the refrain,
"Here comes the sun (doo-doo-doo-doo),
Here comes the sun, and I say,
It's alright."
Sam referred to that last line.
Many people, including me, like that song, so if you
haven't heard it, you might try listening to it.
Thank you. I know some Beatlemania, but I'm of the near-extinguished
classicophilia species.
Post by jerryfriedman
By the way, "explain me" is a common error in English
among speakers of many languages.  "Explain" doesn't take
an indirect object.  A minimal correction of your request
is "Can you explain this to me?"  However, a native speaker
might well omit "to me".
Also, if "explain me" existed, it wouldn't have a hyphen.
I knew that there was a trap, the hyphen was a warning token ;)
Post by jerryfriedman
(Well, it exists in senses like "explain why I am the
way I am".  E.g., "Don't try to explain me, Anna. And
don't try to explain yourself. People just do... what
they do."  --Gayle Friesen, /The Isabel Factor/ (2005).)
As others have said, "me" vs. "to me" is a headache with English verbs.
Tell me more. Yet I'm told weirder things and given no reasons.
Post by jerryfriedman
 >> --
 >> Jerry Friedman
 >
 > Also reminds me of directions I saw somewhere (in NL) that pointed
the enquirer 'door die deur daar'
Now "Here comes the sun (door die deur daar)"
that one could make sense.
Whilst also echoing the Beatle song.
Deu dei deu doe.
IIRC, the Germans had a song the 'chorus' of which went (to my untrained
ears) -"Da da da"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Da_Da_Da
"lieb' dich nicht du liebst mich nicht aha aha aha"
When it comes to onomatopoeic (yet carrying meaning) repetition,
see(!) if anything beats Guido Gezelle's ode to the common swifts
(gierzwaluwen):

"Zie,zie,zie,
zie!zie!zie!
zie!!zie!!zie!!
zie!!!”

https://nl.wikisource.org/wiki/Gezelle/Gierzwaluwen
--
guido wugi
jerryfriedman
2024-11-02 15:38:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by wugi
Post by jerryfriedman
*
[closing a door in Dutch]
 >>> The usual form is
 >>> Doe de deur toe ("Do the door to")
 >> ..
 >>
 >> If that sounds anything like what I imagine, it's very
 >> euphonious, like a wordless vocal.  "Here comes the
 >> sun (doe de deur toe)."
Can you explain-me this?
I was referring to the Beatles song "Here Comes the Sun",
which contains the refrain,
"Here comes the sun (doo-doo-doo-doo),
Here comes the sun, and I say,
It's alright."
Sam referred to that last line.
Many people, including me, like that song, so if you
haven't heard it, you might try listening to it.
Thank you. I know some Beatlemania, but I'm of the near-extinguished
classicophilia species.
In fact, the species /Classicophilus exclusivus/ or the
closely related /C. quasiexclusivus/, which are even
closer to being extinct.
Post by wugi
Post by jerryfriedman
By the way, "explain me" is a common error in English
among speakers of many languages.  "Explain" doesn't take
an indirect object.  A minimal correction of your request
is "Can you explain this to me?"  However, a native speaker
might well omit "to me".
Also, if "explain me" existed, it wouldn't have a hyphen.
I knew that there was a trap, the hyphen was a warning token ;)
Post by jerryfriedman
(Well, it exists in senses like "explain why I am the
way I am".  E.g., "Don't try to explain me, Anna. And
don't try to explain yourself. People just do... what
they do."  --Gayle Friesen, /The Isabel Factor/ (2005).)
As others have said, "me" vs. "to me" is a headache with English verbs.
Tell me more. Yet I'm told weirder things and given no reasons.
..

I don't know of any reason. As Aidan suggested, most verbs
that take an indirect object are of Germanic origin, but
there are exceptions.

--
Jerry Friedman
Peter Moylan
2024-11-02 22:44:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by wugi
As others have said, "me" vs. "to me" is a headache with English
verbs. Tell me more. Yet I'm told weirder things and given no
reasons.
..
I don't know of any reason. As Aidan suggested, most verbs that take
an indirect object are of Germanic origin, but there are exceptions.
The strange thing is that French, from which English has borrowed some
of these verbs, does allow an indirect object in sentences of the
"explain me this" form. I can only guess that Norman French, at the time
English did the borrowing, didn't have that feature.
--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW
Snidely
2024-11-03 00:35:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by wugi
Post by jerryfriedman
*
[closing a door in Dutch]
 >>> The usual form is
 >>> Doe de deur toe ("Do the door to")
 >> ..
 >>
 >> If that sounds anything like what I imagine, it's very
 >> euphonious, like a wordless vocal.  "Here comes the
 >> sun (doe de deur toe)."
Can you explain-me this?
I was referring to the Beatles song "Here Comes the Sun",
which contains the refrain,
"Here comes the sun (doo-doo-doo-doo),
Here comes the sun, and I say,
It's alright."
Sam referred to that last line.
Many people, including me, like that song, so if you
haven't heard it, you might try listening to it.
Thank you. I know some Beatlemania, but I'm of the near-extinguished
classicophilia species.
In fact, the species /Classicophilus exclusivus/ or the
closely related /C. quasiexclusivus/, which are even
closer to being extinct.
However, the hybrids are still a strong limb of the tree.

Sir Paul's efforts I'd classify as light classical or maybe tea music,
reminiscent of Ketelby's works. Billy Joel has been working on
long-form compositions, and now RZA of Wu-Tang Clan has written a
ballet that sounds pretty credible from the movement I've heard on the
radio.

From the jazz side, Keith Jarrett has been doing some very good stuff
in classical form, and Wynton Marsalis has written a violin concerto
for Nicola Benedetti.

I consider that these folk are likely to bring new audiences from those
other branches of the moozik tree, even as performers and orchestras
are experimenting with new concert formats. [I, for one, am glad the
format Ludwig used in premiering the 5th Symphony. And the 6th
Symphony. And the 4th Piano Concerto. And the Choral Fantasy. And
wait, there's more!]

Also, the radio program /From the Top/, features yewts as performers
and seems to come up with a fair number. Many of these plan careers in
classical music, but also play or listen to rock or jazz. Also, there
are many who are in to playing for young listeners ... as a kind of
missionary for classical music.

Also, some cartoonists still use classical music in their sound tracks,
and movies use classical sound tracks, and film composers often write
classical music; James Horner is an example.

/dps
--
Why would I want to be alone with my thoughts?
Have you heard some of the shit that comes out of my mouth?
-- the World Wide Web
Snidely
2024-11-03 00:44:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Saturday or thereabouts, Snidely declared ...
Post by Snidely
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by wugi
Post by jerryfriedman
*
[closing a door in Dutch]
 >>> The usual form is
 >>> Doe de deur toe ("Do the door to")
 >> ..
 >>
 >> If that sounds anything like what I imagine, it's very
 >> euphonious, like a wordless vocal.  "Here comes the
 >> sun (doe de deur toe)."
Can you explain-me this?
I was referring to the Beatles song "Here Comes the Sun",
which contains the refrain,
"Here comes the sun (doo-doo-doo-doo),
Here comes the sun, and I say,
It's alright."
Sam referred to that last line.
Many people, including me, like that song, so if you
haven't heard it, you might try listening to it.
Thank you. I know some Beatlemania, but I'm of the near-extinguished
classicophilia species.
In fact, the species /Classicophilus exclusivus/ or the
closely related /C. quasiexclusivus/, which are even
closer to being extinct.
However, the hybrids are still a strong limb of the tree.
Sir Paul's efforts I'd classify as light classical or maybe tea music,
reminiscent of Ketelby's works. Billy Joel has been working on long-form
compositions, and now RZA of Wu-Tang Clan has written a ballet that sounds
pretty credible from the movement I've heard on the radio.
From the jazz side, Keith Jarrett has been doing some very good stuff in
classical form, and Wynton Marsalis has written a violin concerto for Nicola
Benedetti.
I consider that these folk are likely to bring new audiences from those other
branches of the moozik tree, even as performers and orchestras are
experimenting with new concert formats. [I, for one, am glad the format
Ludwig used in premiering the 5th Symphony. And the 6th Symphony. And the
4th Piano Concerto. And the Choral Fantasy. And wait, there's more!]
Also, the radio program /From the Top/, features yewts as performers and
seems to come up with a fair number. Many of these plan careers in classical
music, but also play or listen to rock or jazz. Also, there are many who are
in to playing for young listeners ... as a kind of missionary for classical
music.
Also, some cartoonists still use classical music in their sound tracks, and
movies use classical sound tracks, and film composers often write classical
music; James Horner is an example.
Major omission for the Underworlders: Douglas Gordon Lilburn's
birthday. He arrived in 1915, and in the NW octisphere it is still his
natal anniversary.

(You'll have to wait for the next leap year for Gareth Farr's birthday;
he may still be composing then, though.)

/dps
--
potstickers, Japanese gyoza, Chinese dumplings, let's do it
Sam Plusnet
2024-11-03 18:38:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Snidely
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by wugi
Post by jerryfriedman
*
[closing a door in Dutch]
 >>> The usual form is
 >>> Doe de deur toe ("Do the door to")
 >> ..
 >>
 >> If that sounds anything like what I imagine, it's very
 >> euphonious, like a wordless vocal.  "Here comes the
 >> sun (doe de deur toe)."
Can you explain-me this?
I was referring to the Beatles song "Here Comes the Sun",
which contains the refrain,
"Here comes the sun (doo-doo-doo-doo),
Here comes the sun, and I say,
It's alright."
Sam referred to that last line.
Many people, including me, like that song, so if you
haven't heard it, you might try listening to it.
Thank you. I know some Beatlemania, but I'm of the near-extinguished
classicophilia species.
In fact, the species /Classicophilus exclusivus/ or the
closely related /C. quasiexclusivus/, which are even
closer to being extinct.
However, the hybrids are still a strong limb of the tree.
Sir Paul's efforts I'd classify as light classical or maybe tea music,
reminiscent of Ketelby's works.  <snip>
You swine! I now have "In A Persian Market" as a persistent earworm.


--
Sam Plusnet
J. J. Lodder
2024-11-01 15:20:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by wugi
Post by navi
1) Push the door to.
2) Pull the door to.
3) Put the door to.
4) Shut the door to.
Do these mean 'close the door' or 'Bring it to a position where it is
almost closed (the latch is touching the plate but the door can be
opened with a push)?
https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=to
FWIW, 1) and 2) echo the Dutch expressions
Duw de deur toe [hardly used]
Trek de deur toe [more likely]
The usual form is
Doe de deur toe ("Do the door to")
..
If that sounds anything like what I imagine, it's very
euphonious, like a wordless vocal. "Here comes the
sun (doe de deur toe)."
More Belgian than Dutch, I'm afraid.
But Belgian often sounds nicer.

For what it is worth, sentences ending with 'toe'
often sound like Germanisms, in Dutch.
(mach die tür zu)

Jan
Hibou
2024-10-30 08:29:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by navi
1) Push the door to.
2) Pull the door to.
3) Put the door to.
4) Shut the door to.
Do these mean 'close the door' or 'Bring it to a position where it is
almost closed (the latch is touching the plate but the door can be
opened with a push)?
I thought it was the latter,
Me too - and Google Books finds several instances of "pushed the door
to, but not shut".
Post by navi
https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=to
Well, yes, but a closed position does not necessarily mean latched shut.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2024-10-30 09:38:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hibou
Post by navi
1) Push the door to.
2) Pull the door to.
3) Put the door to.
4) Shut the door to.
1 and 2 are more or less OK, though I wouldn't use them. 3 is weird and
difficult to understand. 4 is just wrong.
Post by Hibou
Post by navi
Do these mean 'close the door' or 'Bring it to a position where it is
almost closed (the latch is touching the plate but the door can be
opened with a push)?
I thought it was the latter,
Me too - and Google Books finds several instances of "pushed the door
to, but not shut".
Post by navi
https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=to
Well, yes, but a closed position does not necessarily mean latched shut.
--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.
Chris Elvidge
2024-10-30 10:32:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hibou
Post by navi
1) Push the door to.
2) Pull the door to.
3) Put the door to.
4) Shut the door to.
Do these mean 'close the door' or 'Bring it to a position where it is
almost closed (the latch is touching the plate but the door can be
opened with a push)?
I thought it was the latter,
Me too - and Google Books finds several instances of "pushed the door
to, but not shut".
Post by navi
https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=to
Well, yes, but a closed position does not necessarily mean latched shut.
When is a door not a door?
--
Chris Elvidge, England
THEY ARE LAUGHING AT ME, NOT WITH ME
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2024-10-30 10:36:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Chris Elvidge
Post by Hibou
Post by navi
1) Push the door to.
2) Pull the door to.
3) Put the door to.
4) Shut the door to.
Do these mean 'close the door' or 'Bring it to a position where it is
almost closed (the latch is touching the plate but the door can be
opened with a push)?
I thought it was the latter,
Me too - and Google Books finds several instances of "pushed the door
to, but not shut".
Post by navi
https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=to
Well, yes, but a closed position does not necessarily mean latched shut.
When is a door not a door?
When it's ajar. Do modern children still say this?
--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.
Sam Plusnet
2024-10-30 17:34:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hibou
Post by navi
1) Push the door to.
2) Pull the door to.
3) Put the door to.
4) Shut the door to.
Do these mean 'close the door' or 'Bring it to a position where it is
almost closed (the latch is touching the plate but the door can be
opened with a push)?
I thought it was the latter,
Me too - and Google Books finds several instances of "pushed the door
to, but not shut".
Post by navi
https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=to
Well, yes, but a closed position does not necessarily mean latched shut.
True. It depends on the latch mechanism.
--
Sam Plusnet
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