Vulgar Latin -- Demotic French

[HenHanna]

The Romance languages got their Latin roots from uneducated soldiers and
other people who spoke vulgar Latin.

my sense is that... Vulgar Latin is almost like a diff. language,
whereas Demotic French is just informal French

_______________

Demotic French refers to the informal, everyday language used by
ordinary French speakers. It includes colloquial expressions, slang, and
vernacular forms of speech that differ from standard or formal
French[1][5].

This type of French is characterized by:

1. Simplicity: It employs simpler syntax and vocabulary compared to
formal French[2].

2. Dialect influence: It may incorporate regional expressions or
pronunciations[2].

3. Fluidity: Demotic French evolves more rapidly than formal language,
reflecting current usage[2].


For example, a speaker might use demotic French when conversing with
friends or in casual settings, as opposed to the more formal language
used in official documents or academic contexts[5].

This form of French captures the authentic, everyday speech patterns of
native speakers and can vary based on factors such as region, social
group, and age.

Citations:
[1] https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/demotic
[2] https://worldschoolbooks.com/description-of-demotic/
[3] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/demotic
[4]
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/museums-static/digitalegypt/writing/demotic.html
[5] https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/demotic

_____________________________


In the poem, Eliot refers to Mr. Eugenides, the Smyrna
merchant, who "Asked me in demotic French / To luncheon at the Cannon
Street Hotel". This reference to demotic French suggests that Mr.
Eugenides spoke in a colloquial or informal version of French, rather
than a more formal or literary style.


_________________ iirc... He was gay, and hitting on the Speaker.



Based on the search results, Mr. Eugenides is indeed portrayed
as making a homosexual advance towards the speaker. The search results
confirm this interpretation with several key details:

- Mr. Eugenides is a merchant from Smyrna (modern-day Turkey) trading in
dried fruit

- He propositions the speaker for a homosexual tryst at the Cannon
Street Hotel

- The encounter is described with subtle homophobic undertones,
portraying Eugenides as "unshaven" and speaking in a "lower class French
dialect"


The search results specifically note that Eugenides "offers the speaker
his exports" and suggests a weekend at "a notorious Brighton hotel",
which is implied to be a known location for homosexual encounters.

Interestingly, his name "Eugenides" means "well-born" in Greek,
which Eliot uses ironically given the character's portrayal. The
encounter is part of Eliot's broader commentary on the "emotional
wasteland" and meaningless sexual interactions in modern society.

The scene is part of "The Fire Sermon" section of The Waste Land, which
explores themes of loveless and improper sexual relationships within the
broader context of a spiritually and emotionally barren modern world.

Citations:
[1] https://www.sparknotes.com/poetry/eliot/section4/
[2]
https://athensinapoem.com/2022/10/25/poetic-reality-no18-the-waste-lands-centenary-part-1-roots-bodies-and-boundaries-a-waste-land-for-a-new-century/
[3] http://eliotwasteland.blogspot.com/2018/09/mr-eugenides.html
[4]
http://mrhoyesibwebsite.com/Poetry%20Texts/Wasteland/Section%20Notes/The%20Fire%20Sermon.htm
[5] https://www.sparknotes.com/poetry/the-waste-land/poetic-devices/
[6] https://yalereview.org/article/vendler-eliot-waste-land
[7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Waste_Land
[8]
https://www.joeledmundanderson.com/the-wasteland-by-t-s-eliot-a-reading-and-explanation/


________________


i think... Eliot had homosexual tendencies,
and this was based on a real encounter that he had.

[Demotic French] likely referred to some actual
expression that was used (a codeword) ... and that's why
it made such a big impression on me.

[Ed Cryer]

The Romance languages got their Latin roots from uneducated soldiers and
other people who spoke vulgar Latin.

my sense is that...  Vulgar Latin is almost like a diff. language,
       whereas  Demotic French  is just  informal French
_______________
Demotic French refers to the informal, everyday language used by
ordinary French speakers. It includes colloquial expressions, slang, and
vernacular forms of speech that differ from standard or formal
French[1][5].
1. Simplicity: It employs simpler syntax and vocabulary compared to
formal French[2].
2. Dialect influence: It may incorporate regional expressions or
pronunciations[2].
3. Fluidity: Demotic French evolves more rapidly than formal language,
reflecting current usage[2].
For example, a speaker might use demotic French when conversing with
friends or in casual settings, as opposed to the more formal language
used in official documents or academic contexts[5].
This form of French captures the authentic, everyday speech patterns of
native speakers and can vary based on factors such as region, social
group, and age.
[1] https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/demotic
[2] https://worldschoolbooks.com/description-of-demotic/
[3] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/demotic
[4]
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/museums-static/digitalegypt/writing/demotic.html
[5] https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/demotic
_____________________________
          In the poem, Eliot refers to Mr. Eugenides, the Smyrna
merchant, who "Asked me in demotic French / To luncheon at the Cannon
Street Hotel".   This reference to demotic French suggests that Mr.
Eugenides spoke in a colloquial or informal version of French, rather
than a more formal or literary style.
_________________ iirc...  He was gay, and hitting on the Speaker.
        Based on the search results, Mr. Eugenides is indeed portrayed
as making a homosexual advance towards the speaker. The search results
- Mr. Eugenides is a merchant from Smyrna (modern-day Turkey) trading in
dried fruit
- He propositions the speaker for a homosexual tryst at the Cannon
Street Hotel
- The encounter is described with subtle homophobic undertones,
portraying Eugenides as "unshaven" and speaking in a "lower class French
dialect"
The search results specifically note that Eugenides "offers the speaker
his exports" and suggests a weekend at "a notorious Brighton hotel",
which is implied to be a known location for homosexual encounters.
        Interestingly, his name "Eugenides" means "well-born" in Greek,
which Eliot uses ironically given the character's portrayal. The
encounter is part of Eliot's broader commentary on the "emotional
wasteland" and meaningless sexual interactions in modern society.
The scene is part of "The Fire Sermon" section of The Waste Land, which
explores themes of loveless and improper sexual relationships within the
broader context of a spiritually and emotionally barren modern world.
[1] https://www.sparknotes.com/poetry/eliot/section4/
[2]
https://athensinapoem.com/2022/10/25/poetic-reality-no18-the-waste-
lands-centenary-part-1-roots-bodies-and-boundaries-a-waste-land-for-a-
new-century/
[3] http://eliotwasteland.blogspot.com/2018/09/mr-eugenides.html
[4]
http://mrhoyesibwebsite.com/Poetry%20Texts/Wasteland/Section%20Notes/
The%20Fire%20Sermon.htm
[5] https://www.sparknotes.com/poetry/the-waste-land/poetic-devices/
[6] https://yalereview.org/article/vendler-eliot-waste-land
[7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Waste_Land
[8]
https://www.joeledmundanderson.com/the-wasteland-by-t-s-eliot-a-reading-
and-explanation/
________________
 i think...  Eliot  had  homosexual  tendencies,
and this was based on a real encounter that he had.
[Demotic French]  likely referred to some actual
expression that was used  (a codeword) ... and that's why
it made such a big impression on me.

What silly flights of fancies you ride on!
Don't let them drag you down. Reach upwards; that's where life becomes
worthwhile.

Ed

[LionelEdwards]

Post by HenHanna

The Romance languages got their Latin roots from uneducated soldiers and
other people who spoke vulgar Latin.

my sense is that... Vulgar Latin is almost like a diff. language,
whereas Demotic French is just informal French
_______________
Demotic French refers to the informal, everyday language used by
ordinary French speakers. It includes colloquial expressions, slang, and
vernacular forms of speech that differ from standard or formal
French[1][5].
1. Simplicity: It employs simpler syntax and vocabulary compared to
formal French[2].
2. Dialect influence: It may incorporate regional expressions or
pronunciations[2].
3. Fluidity: Demotic French evolves more rapidly than formal language,
reflecting current usage[2].
For example, a speaker might use demotic French when conversing with
friends or in casual settings, as opposed to the more formal language
used in official documents or academic contexts[5].
This form of French captures the authentic, everyday speech patterns of
native speakers and can vary based on factors such as region, social
group, and age.
[1] https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/demotic
[2] https://worldschoolbooks.com/description-of-demotic/
[3] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/demotic
[4]
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/museums-static/digitalegypt/writing/demotic.html
[5] https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/demotic
_____________________________
In the poem, Eliot refers to Mr. Eugenides, the Smyrna
merchant, who "Asked me in demotic French / To luncheon at the Cannon
Street Hotel". This reference to demotic French suggests that Mr.
Eugenides spoke in a colloquial or informal version of French, rather
than a more formal or literary style.
_________________ iirc... He was gay, and hitting on the Speaker.
Based on the search results, Mr. Eugenides is indeed portrayed
as making a homosexual advance towards the speaker. The search results
- Mr. Eugenides is a merchant from Smyrna (modern-day Turkey) trading in
dried fruit
- He propositions the speaker for a homosexual tryst at the Cannon
Street Hotel
- The encounter is described with subtle homophobic undertones,
portraying Eugenides as "unshaven" and speaking in a "lower class French
dialect"
The search results specifically note that Eugenides "offers the speaker
his exports" and suggests a weekend at "a notorious Brighton hotel",
which is implied to be a known location for homosexual encounters.
Interestingly, his name "Eugenides" means "well-born" in Greek,
which Eliot uses ironically given the character's portrayal. The
encounter is part of Eliot's broader commentary on the "emotional
wasteland" and meaningless sexual interactions in modern society.
The scene is part of "The Fire Sermon" section of The Waste Land, which
explores themes of loveless and improper sexual relationships within the
broader context of a spiritually and emotionally barren modern world.
[1] https://www.sparknotes.com/poetry/eliot/section4/
[2]
https://athensinapoem.com/2022/10/25/poetic-reality-no18-the-waste-lands-centenary-part-1-roots-bodies-and-boundaries-a-waste-land-for-a-new-century/
[3] http://eliotwasteland.blogspot.com/2018/09/mr-eugenides.html
[4]
http://mrhoyesibwebsite.com/Poetry%20Texts/Wasteland/Section%20Notes/The%20Fire%20Sermon.htm
[5] https://www.sparknotes.com/poetry/the-waste-land/poetic-devices/
[6] https://yalereview.org/article/vendler-eliot-waste-land
[7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Waste_Land
[8]
https://www.joeledmundanderson.com/the-wasteland-by-t-s-eliot-a-reading-and-explanation/
________________
i think... Eliot had homosexual tendencies,
and this was based on a real encounter that he had.
[Demotic French] likely referred to some actual
expression that was used (a codeword) ... and that's why
it made such a big impression on me.

The word "demotic" was supplied by Ezra Pound in his late
edit of The Waste Land.

[Christian Weisgerber]

Post by LionelEdwards
The word "demotic" was supplied by Ezra Pound in his late
edit of The Waste Land.

The term that immediately comes to mind is "Demotic Egyptian", i.e.,
the stage of the Egyptian language written in the demotic script
as opposed to the earlier hieroglypic and hieratic scripts. Etymonline
confirms that this was the original (1822) use of "demotic" in
English; the meaning was later extended.

Regarding the basilectal register of a language, the pattern of
simplifications might not be what a second-language learner might
wish for. So yesterday I was watching the final episode of the
Brasilian Netflix show _Dom_, which showcases Portuguese of the
colloquial/slang kind from Rio de Janeiro. There you can find gems
such as this one:

Depois que eu fizer, tu vai deixar eu ir embora.
"Once I do this, you'll let me go away."

So the main clause has the analytic "ir" + infinitive construction
instead of the synthetic future tense, and it uses a second person
subject pronoun with a third person verb. Never mind the use of
"eu" in what I'd consider an object role. But at the same time,
the temporal clause employs the most exotic beast from the zoo of
Romance tense/aspect/mood categories, the future subjunctive!

[HenHanna]

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by LionelEdwards
The word "demotic" was supplied by Ezra Pound in his late
edit of The Waste Land.

thanks... (my 2 AI's don't think so)

I wonder if Scholars are still discovering new things about
[The Waste Land] -- the way Scholars are finding new sources, etc.
for Joyce's works.

perh. Demotic (in the poem) suggests Demote
because the speaker was slumming or exploring Gay encounters.


Cruising, Cottaging (UK)

Post by Christian Weisgerber
The term that immediately comes to mind is "Demotic Egyptian", i.e.,
the stage of the Egyptian language written in the demotic script
as opposed to the earlier hieroglypic and hieratic scripts. Etymonline
confirms that this was the original (1822) use of "demotic" in
English; the meaning was later extended.
Regarding the basilectal register of a language, the pattern of
simplifications might not be what a second-language learner might
wish for. So yesterday I was watching the final episode of the
Brasilian Netflix show _Dom_, which showcases Portuguese of the
colloquial/slang kind from Rio de Janeiro. There you can find gems
Depois que eu fizer, tu vai deixar eu ir embora.
"Once I do this, you'll let me go away."
So the main clause has the analytic "ir" + infinitive construction
instead of the synthetic future tense, and it uses a second person
subject pronoun with a third person verb. Never mind the use of
"eu" in what I'd consider an object role. But at the same time,
the temporal clause employs the most exotic beast from the zoo of
Romance tense/aspect/mood categories, the future subjunctive!

[HenHanna]

Post by HenHanna

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by LionelEdwards
The word "demotic" was supplied by Ezra Pound in his late
edit of The Waste Land.

thanks... (my 2 AI's don't think so)
I wonder if Scholars are still discovering new things about
[The Waste Land] -- the way Scholars are finding new sources, etc.
for Joyce's works.
perh. Demotic (in the poem) suggests Demote
because the speaker was slumming or exploring Gay encounters.
Cruising, Cottaging (UK)

Post by Christian Weisgerber
The term that immediately comes to mind is "Demotic Egyptian", i.e.,
the stage of the Egyptian language written in the demotic script
as opposed to the earlier hieroglypic and hieratic scripts. Etymonline
confirms that this was the original (1822) use of "demotic" in
English; the meaning was later extended.
Regarding the basilectal register of a language, the pattern of
simplifications might not be what a second-language learner might
wish for. So yesterday I was watching the final episode of the
Brasilian Netflix show _Dom_, which showcases Portuguese of the
colloquial/slang kind from Rio de Janeiro. There you can find gems
Depois que eu fizer, tu vai deixar eu ir embora.
"Once I do this, you'll let me go away."
So the main clause has the analytic "ir" + infinitive construction
instead of the synthetic future tense, and it uses a second person
subject pronoun with a third person verb. Never mind the use of
"eu" in what I'd consider an object role. But at the same time,
the temporal clause employs the most exotic beast from the zoo of
Romance tense/aspect/mood categories, the future subjunctive!

____________________

Nice line... (like in Pet Shop Boys)

but i'm not seeing what so interesting about it.
____________________

La traduction en français de la phrase portugaise "Depois que eu fizer,
tu vai deixar eu ir embora" est :

"Après que je l'aurai fait, tu me laisseras partir."

Cette traduction conserve le sens et la structure temporelle de la
phrase originale en portugais.


"Après que je l'aurai fait, tu vas me laisser partir."

_______________________


The word "embora" is not a verb in itself; rather, it functions as an
adverb meaning "away" or "to leave." However, it is derived from the
verb "ir," which means "to go."


The word "embora" in Portuguese has roots in Latin. Its root form can be
traced back to the Latin phrase "in bore," which means "to go out" or
"to leave."

[LionelEdwards]

Post by LionelEdwards

Post by HenHanna

The Romance languages got their Latin roots from uneducated soldiers and
other people who spoke vulgar Latin.

my sense is that... Vulgar Latin is almost like a diff. language,
whereas Demotic French is just informal French
_______________
Demotic French refers to the informal, everyday language used by
ordinary French speakers. It includes colloquial expressions, slang, and
vernacular forms of speech that differ from standard or formal
French[1][5].
1. Simplicity: It employs simpler syntax and vocabulary compared to
formal French[2].
2. Dialect influence: It may incorporate regional expressions or
pronunciations[2].
3. Fluidity: Demotic French evolves more rapidly than formal language,
reflecting current usage[2].
For example, a speaker might use demotic French when conversing with
friends or in casual settings, as opposed to the more formal language
used in official documents or academic contexts[5].
This form of French captures the authentic, everyday speech patterns of
native speakers and can vary based on factors such as region, social
group, and age.
[1] https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/demotic
[2] https://worldschoolbooks.com/description-of-demotic/
[3] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/demotic
[4]
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/museums-static/digitalegypt/writing/demotic.html
[5] https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/demotic
_____________________________
In the poem, Eliot refers to Mr. Eugenides, the Smyrna
merchant, who "Asked me in demotic French / To luncheon at the Cannon
Street Hotel". This reference to demotic French suggests that Mr.
Eugenides spoke in a colloquial or informal version of French, rather
than a more formal or literary style.
_________________ iirc... He was gay, and hitting on the Speaker.
Based on the search results, Mr. Eugenides is indeed portrayed
as making a homosexual advance towards the speaker. The search results
- Mr. Eugenides is a merchant from Smyrna (modern-day Turkey) trading in
dried fruit
- He propositions the speaker for a homosexual tryst at the Cannon
Street Hotel
- The encounter is described with subtle homophobic undertones,
portraying Eugenides as "unshaven" and speaking in a "lower class French
dialect"
The search results specifically note that Eugenides "offers the speaker
his exports" and suggests a weekend at "a notorious Brighton hotel",
which is implied to be a known location for homosexual encounters.
Interestingly, his name "Eugenides" means "well-born" in Greek,
which Eliot uses ironically given the character's portrayal. The
encounter is part of Eliot's broader commentary on the "emotional
wasteland" and meaningless sexual interactions in modern society.
The scene is part of "The Fire Sermon" section of The Waste Land, which
explores themes of loveless and improper sexual relationships within the
broader context of a spiritually and emotionally barren modern world.
[1] https://www.sparknotes.com/poetry/eliot/section4/
[2]
https://athensinapoem.com/2022/10/25/poetic-reality-no18-the-waste-lands-centenary-part-1-roots-bodies-and-boundaries-a-waste-land-for-a-new-century/
[3] http://eliotwasteland.blogspot.com/2018/09/mr-eugenides.html
[4]
http://mrhoyesibwebsite.com/Poetry%20Texts/Wasteland/Section%20Notes/The%20Fire%20Sermon.htm
[5] https://www.sparknotes.com/poetry/the-waste-land/poetic-devices/
[6] https://yalereview.org/article/vendler-eliot-waste-land
[7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Waste_Land
[8]
https://www.joeledmundanderson.com/the-wasteland-by-t-s-eliot-a-reading-and-explanation/
________________
i think... Eliot had homosexual tendencies,
and this was based on a real encounter that he had.
[Demotic French] likely referred to some actual
expression that was used (a codeword) ... and that's why
it made such a big impression on me.

The word "demotic" was supplied by Ezra Pound in his late
edit of The Waste Land.

I seem to remember that "demotic" was chosen by both of them
to replace "common" in the original?