ramekin - odd word

[Rich Ulrich]

Over the years, I've run across the word 'ramekin' in mentions
of kitchen-ware - not often, but a few times. Last week I saw
it again, and this time I bothered to look it up. (modern, urban
paranormal sci-fi, a witch gathering supplies.)

I have one! No, I have two! and they are the only dishes
that I know that I have had for 55 years. They are two small
ceramic bowls, solid and attractive. They are intended for use
in the oven, cooking single portions (desserts?). Wiki picture:
Loading Image...

Mine are ceramic like the one on the right, and use the same colors.
Mine have the off-white on the inside, and the deep brown covers
the outside. Mine have tapered walls, shallower than the (white)
ramekin on the left.


I inherited these ramekins, so to speak, when they were left in
the oven of the apartment I rented in 1969. (The landlord told
me to keep them; the prior tenant had died, and someone
unrelated had cleared the apartment. Except for two ramekins
in the oven and a potted plant in the living room. The plant
soon died.)


Google-ngrams tells me that the word itself has become about
20-fold more popular in the last 50 years, a steep and regular
climb. Books cited are cookbooks. So, the people I later shared
a house with probably didn't know the word. Or, if they told me,
it is a strange enough word that I didn't entirely believe them,
so, I immediately forgot.

It seems to me to be a strange word, and it remains that way
after I Google on etymology:
How did the ramekin get its name?

The term is derived from the French ramequin, a cheese- or
meat-based dish baked in a small mould. The French term is in turn
derived from early modern Dutch rammeken, which translated to
'toast' or 'roasted minced meat', itself apparently from ram
'battering ram' + -kin 'diminutive', but it is unclear why.

[Tony Cooper]

On Sun, 01 Dec 2024 00:57:09 -0500, Rich Ulrich

Post by Rich Ulrich
Over the years, I've run across the word 'ramekin' in mentions
of kitchen-ware - not often, but a few times. Last week I saw
it again, and this time I bothered to look it up. (modern, urban
paranormal sci-fi, a witch gathering supplies.)
I have one! No, I have two! and they are the only dishes
that I know that I have had for 55 years. They are two small
ceramic bowls, solid and attractive. They are intended for use
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramekin#/media/File:Two_ramekins.jpg
Mine are ceramic like the one on the right, and use the same colors.
Mine have the off-white on the inside, and the deep brown covers
the outside. Mine have tapered walls, shallower than the (white)
ramekin on the left.
I inherited these ramekins, so to speak, when they were left in
the oven of the apartment I rented in 1969. (The landlord told
me to keep them; the prior tenant had died, and someone
unrelated had cleared the apartment. Except for two ramekins
in the oven and a potted plant in the living room. The plant
soon died.)
Google-ngrams tells me that the word itself has become about
20-fold more popular in the last 50 years, a steep and regular
climb. Books cited are cookbooks. So, the people I later shared
a house with probably didn't know the word. Or, if they told me,
it is a strange enough word that I didn't entirely believe them,
so, I immediately forgot.
It seems to me to be a strange word, and it remains that way
How did the ramekin get its name?
The term is derived from the French ramequin, a cheese- or
meat-based dish baked in a small mould. The French term is in turn
derived from early modern Dutch rammeken, which translated to
'toast' or 'roasted minced meat', itself apparently from ram
'battering ram' + -kin 'diminutive', but it is unclear why.

We have, and use, ramekins. Our daughter brought 20 pounds of shrimp
to Thanksgiving. The plate of shrimp was set out on the table, and
several ramekins of cocktail sauce was also set out.

BTW...why is it called "cocktail sauce" when it it not associated with
a cocktail (alcoholic beverage)?

A bit of explanation...we rented a cabin on a lake in the Ocala
National Forest for four days Thanksgiving week. Son and family,
daughter and husband, and my wife and I stayed there. The shrimp
weren't Thanksgiving dinner; they were served another day. Daughter
lives in Jacksonville Beach and bought the shrimp right off the boat.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Tony Cooper
BTW...why is it called "cocktail sauce" when it it not associated with
a cocktail (alcoholic beverage)?

Could "cocktail" just mean "mixed"?

[JNugent]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Tony Cooper
BTW...why is it called "cocktail sauce" when it it not associated with
a cocktail (alcoholic beverage)?

Could "cocktail" just mean "mixed"?

This side of the Atlantic, a prawn* cocktail (served as a starter)
consists of a bed of salad topped with prawns* in Thousand Island Sauce.

I can quite see that some might call that "cocktail Sauce".

[* "prawn" here equates to "shrimp" west of the ocean. Shrimps here are
tiny things between a centimetre and a centimetre and a half long.]

[Tony Cooper]

Post by JNugent

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Tony Cooper
BTW...why is it called "cocktail sauce" when it it not associated with
a cocktail (alcoholic beverage)?

Could "cocktail" just mean "mixed"?

This side of the Atlantic, a prawn* cocktail (served as a starter)
consists of a bed of salad topped with prawns* in Thousand Island Sauce.

"Thousand Island" salad dressing is a common salad dressing in the US,
but it's pinkish in color. It's made with ketchup, mayonnaise, white
vinigar, and sugar.

A shrimp cocktail is served here with a darkish red sauce that is made
with ketchup, lemon juice, horseradish, and sometime Worcestershire
sauce. The shrimp are dipped in the shrimp sauce.

[Snidely]

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by JNugent

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Tony Cooper
BTW...why is it called "cocktail sauce" when it it not associated with
a cocktail (alcoholic beverage)?

Could "cocktail" just mean "mixed"?

This side of the Atlantic, a prawn* cocktail (served as a starter)
consists of a bed of salad topped with prawns* in Thousand Island Sauce.

"Thousand Island" salad dressing is a common salad dressing in the US,
but it's pinkish in color. It's made with ketchup, mayonnaise, white
vinigar, and sugar.

And the Islands ... usually cucumber pickle bits, like pickle relish.

Post by Tony Cooper
A shrimp cocktail is served here with a darkish red sauce that is made
with ketchup, lemon juice, horseradish, and sometime Worcestershire
sauce. The shrimp are dipped in the shrimp sauce.

Several of the Vegas casinos put the shrimp into the glass or cup, and
pour the sauce over.

/dps

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Snidely

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by JNugent

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Tony Cooper
BTW...why is it called "cocktail sauce" when it it not associated with
a cocktail (alcoholic beverage)?

Could "cocktail" just mean "mixed"?

This side of the Atlantic, a prawn* cocktail (served as a starter)
consists of a bed of salad topped with prawns* in Thousand Island Sauce.

"Thousand Island" salad dressing is a common salad dressing in the US,
but it's pinkish in color. It's made with ketchup, mayonnaise, white
vinigar, and sugar.

And the Islands ... usually cucumber pickle bits, like pickle relish.

Has anyone ever counted them? It sounds like a class action just
waiting to happen.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Snidely

Post by Tony Cooper
"Thousand Island" salad dressing is a common salad dressing in
the US, but it's pinkish in color. It's made with ketchup,
mayonnaise, white vinigar, and sugar.

And the Islands ... usually cucumber pickle bits, like pickle
relish.

Has anyone ever counted them? It sounds like a class action just
waiting to happen.

The confectionery item apparently known as Sprinkles in the US is called
"hundreds and thousands" in many other places. I never tried to count them.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Peter Moylan
The confectionery item apparently known as Sprinkles in the US is called
"hundreds and thousands" in many other places. I never tried to count them.

I searched for pictures of "hundreds and thousands". They look like what
we called "pinocchiokugler"(pinocchio balls) when I was a child. We
actually bought them by numbers, so the shopowner counted them carefully
and put them in folded paper.

They still exist, but now they are of course in prepacked plastic.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Peter Moylan
The confectionery item apparently known as Sprinkles in the US is
called "hundreds and thousands" in many other places. I never tried
to count them.

I searched for pictures of "hundreds and thousands". They look like
what we called "pinocchiokugler"(pinocchio balls) when I was a child.
We actually bought them by numbers, so the shopowner counted them
carefully and put them in folded paper.
They still exist, but now they are of course in prepacked plastic.

Not quite the same thing. Our hundreds and thousands are much smaller,
and there would be no chance that the shop owner could count them. Of
course it can be difficult to judge scale on an on-line image.

They are typically sprinkled on top of the icing on a cake. WIWAL, an
item at a children's party might be buttered bread with hundreds and
thousands on top.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Peter Moylan
Not quite the same thing. Our hundreds and thousands are much smaller,
and there would be no chance that the shop owner could count them. Of
course it can be difficult to judge scale on an on-line image.
They are typically sprinkled on top of the icing on a cake. WIWAL, an
item at a children's party might be buttered bread with hundreds and
thousands on top.

Oh I see. That is "krymmel" in Danish. The word is a diminutive of
"krumme" which you know as "crumb". The word could be translated as
"crumblets".

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Mon, 16 Dec 2024 19:00:29 +1100

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Peter Moylan
The confectionery item apparently known as Sprinkles in the US is
called "hundreds and thousands" in many other places. I never tried
to count them.

I searched for pictures of "hundreds and thousands". They look like
what we called "pinocchiokugler"(pinocchio balls) when I was a child.
We actually bought them by numbers, so the shopowner counted them
carefully and put them in folded paper.
They still exist, but now they are of course in prepacked plastic.

Not quite the same thing. Our hundreds and thousands are much smaller,
and there would be no chance that the shop owner could count them. Of
course it can be difficult to judge scale on an on-line image.
They are typically sprinkled on top of the icing on a cake. WIWAL, an
item at a children's party might be buttered bread with hundreds and
thousands on top.

WIWAL I encountered this as a "continental breakfast".

[Steve Hayes]

Post by JNugent

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Tony Cooper
BTW...why is it called "cocktail sauce" when it it not associated with
a cocktail (alcoholic beverage)?

Could "cocktail" just mean "mixed"?

This side of the Atlantic, a prawn* cocktail (served as a starter)
consists of a bed of salad topped with prawns* in Thousand Island Sauce.
I can quite see that some might call that "cocktail Sauce".
[* "prawn" here equates to "shrimp" west of the ocean. Shrimps here are
tiny things between a centimetre and a centimetre and a half long.]

Was it shrimps or prawns that lured so many to their death in
Morecambe Bay?

[Aidan Kehoe]

[...] Was it shrimps or prawns that lured so many to their death in
Morecambe Bay?

Cockles, which I learn today are Cerastoderma edule. They are a type of clam,
not shrimps, not prawns.

[Steve Hayes]

Post by Aidan Kehoe

[...] Was it shrimps or prawns that lured so many to their death in
Morecambe Bay?

Cockles, which I learn today are Cerastoderma edule. They are a type of clam,
not shrimps, not prawns.

Wot! No mussels?

[Aidan Kehoe]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Aidan Kehoe

[...] Was it shrimps or prawns that lured so many to their death in
Morecambe Bay?

Cockles, which I learn today are Cerastoderma edule. They are a type of
clam, not shrimps, not prawns.

Wot! No mussels?

And not alive, alive-o.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Aidan Kehoe

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Aidan Kehoe

[...] Was it shrimps or prawns that lured so many to their death in
Morecambe Bay?

Cockles, which I learn today are Cerastoderma edule. They are a type of
clam, not shrimps, not prawns.

Wot! No mussels?

And not alive, alive-o.

In Dublin's fair city
Where girls are so pretty
My Molly stands out
'cause she weighs eighteen stone.
I don't mind her fat, but
It's not only that, but
She's cock-eyed and muscle-bound
Molly Malone.

[lar3ryca]

Post by Peter Moylan

  > On Mon, 16 Dec 2024 12:45:07 +0000, Aidan Kehoe
  >
  > >
  > > > [...] Was it shrimps or prawns that lured so many to their
death in
  > > > Morecambe Bay?
  > >
  > >Cockles, which I learn today are Cerastoderma edule. They are a
type of
  > >clam, not shrimps, not prawns.
  >
  > Wot! No mussels?
And not alive, alive-o.

In Dublin's fair city
Where girls are so pretty
My Molly stands out
'cause she weighs eighteen stone.
I don't mind her fat, but
It's not only that, but
She's cock-eyed and muscle-bound
Molly Malone.

RIP Allan Sherman. Your songs amused me greatly.

Every time you take vaccine,
Take it orally.
As you know, the other way
Is more painfully.

[Aidan Kehoe]

Post by lar3ryca

[...] In Dublin's fair city
Where girls are so pretty
My Molly stands out
'cause she weighs eighteen stone.
I don't mind her fat, but
It's not only that, but
She's cock-eyed and muscle-bound
Molly Malone.

RIP Allan Sherman. Your songs amused me greatly.
Every time you take vaccine,
Take it orally.
As you know, the other way
Is more painfully.

Thanks for that, both of you, I’ll look him up!

[Peter Moylan]

Post by lar3ryca
Every time you take vaccine,
Take it orally.
As you know, the other way
Is more painfully.

You probably know that the tune for this was taken from the 19th-century
song "Aura Lea". That's fair enough. Sherman's business was parody.
Besides, he acknowledges the source in his lyrics.

Elvis Presley, who did not do parody, was known for recycling
lightly-disguised versions of well-known tunes. He too used the tune of
"Aura Lea".

Love me tender, love me true,
Love me, Aura Lee.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Steve Hayes
Was it shrimps or prawns that lured so many to their death in
Morecambe Bay?

I must have missed that story. There is, however, an infamous and
similarly dangerous place near Newcastle. Fingal Spit is a tidal sand
bridge between Fingal Beach and Fingal Island. When the tide is low it's
possible to walk to the island. It's not a good idea, though. When the
tide changes, you'll probably drown when trying to walk back to the
mainland, because the waves come in from both sides and treacherous
currents form, even when the path appears to be shallow.

[Bob Martin]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Steve Hayes
Was it shrimps or prawns that lured so many to their death in
Morecambe Bay?

I must have missed that story. There is, however, an infamous and
similarly dangerous place near Newcastle. Fingal Spit is a tidal sand
bridge between Fingal Beach and Fingal Island. When the tide is low it's
possible to walk to the island. It's not a good idea, though. When the
tide changes, you'll probably drown when trying to walk back to the
mainland, because the waves come in from both sides and treacherous
currents form, even when the path appears to be shallow.

It was cockles.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morecambe_Bay_cockling_disaster

[Steve Hayes]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Steve Hayes
Was it shrimps or prawns that lured so many to their death in
Morecambe Bay?

I must have missed that story. There is, however, an infamous and
similarly dangerous place near Newcastle. Fingal Spit is a tidal sand
bridge between Fingal Beach and Fingal Island. When the tide is low it's
possible to walk to the island. It's not a good idea, though. When the
tide changes, you'll probably drown when trying to walk back to the
mainland, because the waves come in from both sides and treacherous
currents form, even when the path appears to be shallow.

Similarly dangerous place near another Newcastle -- Lindisfarne.

Been there, need to watch the tide tables.

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Tue, 17 Dec 2024 10:34:46 +0200

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Steve Hayes
Was it shrimps or prawns that lured so many to their death in
Morecambe Bay?

I must have missed that story. There is, however, an infamous and
similarly dangerous place near Newcastle. Fingal Spit is a tidal sand
bridge between Fingal Beach and Fingal Island. When the tide is low it's
possible to walk to the island. It's not a good idea, though. When the
tide changes, you'll probably drown when trying to walk back to the
mainland, because the waves come in from both sides and treacherous
currents form, even when the path appears to be shallow.

Similarly dangerous place near another Newcastle -- Lindisfarne.
Been there, need to watch the tide tables.

It's eerie; the way the place is packed with tourists and busses,; then
they all depart, leaving just the few locals tidying up. But we did get
back OK. Wettest holiday ever, though.

[JNugent]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by JNugent

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Tony Cooper
BTW...why is it called "cocktail sauce" when it it not associated with
a cocktail (alcoholic beverage)?

Could "cocktail" just mean "mixed"?

This side of the Atlantic, a prawn* cocktail (served as a starter)
consists of a bed of salad topped with prawns* in Thousand Island Sauce.
I can quite see that some might call that "cocktail Sauce".
[* "prawn" here equates to "shrimp" west of the ocean. Shrimps here are
tiny things between a centimetre and a centimetre and a half long.]

Was it shrimps or prawns that lured so many to their death in
Morecambe Bay?

I am fairly sure that it was neither.

They were digging in the low-tide sand for cockles and maybe mussels
(mollusc rather than crustacean).

[Snidely]

Sunday, Tony Cooper murmurred ...

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 01 Dec 2024 00:57:09 -0500, Rich Ulrich

Post by Rich Ulrich
Over the years, I've run across the word 'ramekin' in mentions
of kitchen-ware - not often, but a few times. Last week I saw
it again, and this time I bothered to look it up. (modern, urban
paranormal sci-fi, a witch gathering supplies.)
I have one! No, I have two! and they are the only dishes
that I know that I have had for 55 years. They are two small
ceramic bowls, solid and attractive. They are intended for use
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramekin#/media/File:Two_ramekins.jpg
Mine are ceramic like the one on the right, and use the same colors.
Mine have the off-white on the inside, and the deep brown covers
the outside. Mine have tapered walls, shallower than the (white)
ramekin on the left.
I inherited these ramekins, so to speak, when they were left in
the oven of the apartment I rented in 1969. (The landlord told
me to keep them; the prior tenant had died, and someone
unrelated had cleared the apartment. Except for two ramekins
in the oven and a potted plant in the living room. The plant
soon died.)
Google-ngrams tells me that the word itself has become about
20-fold more popular in the last 50 years, a steep and regular
climb. Books cited are cookbooks. So, the people I later shared
a house with probably didn't know the word. Or, if they told me,
it is a strange enough word that I didn't entirely believe them,
so, I immediately forgot.
It seems to me to be a strange word, and it remains that way
How did the ramekin get its name?
The term is derived from the French ramequin, a cheese- or
meat-based dish baked in a small mould. The French term is in turn
derived from early modern Dutch rammeken, which translated to
'toast' or 'roasted minced meat', itself apparently from ram
'battering ram' + -kin 'diminutive', but it is unclear why.

We have, and use, ramekins. Our daughter brought 20 pounds of shrimp
to Thanksgiving. The plate of shrimp was set out on the table, and
several ramekins of cocktail sauce was also set out.
BTW...why is it called "cocktail sauce" when it it not associated with
a cocktail (alcoholic beverage)?

Because that preparation of shrimp is served as nibbles with cocktails?
You'd expect dinner shrimp to be part of a proper dish, maybe with
linguini or paired with steak. Shrimp off the barbie is a casual food
that is likely to be part of a meal.

("Shrimp off the barbie" is, for me, cultural appropriation. Prior to
certain cinematic events, I knew of "barbecued shrimp".)

Post by Tony Cooper
A bit of explanation...we rented a cabin on a lake in the Ocala
National Forest for four days Thanksgiving week. Son and family,
daughter and husband, and my wife and I stayed there. The shrimp
weren't Thanksgiving dinner; they were served another day. Daughter
lives in Jacksonville Beach and bought the shrimp right off the boat.

It's a tough life.

/dps

[Snidely]

Post by Snidely
Sunday, Tony Cooper murmurred ...

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 01 Dec 2024 00:57:09 -0500, Rich Ulrich

Over the years, I've run across the word 'ramekin' in mentions of
kitchen-ware - not often, but a few times. Last week I saw it again, and
this time I bothered to look it up. (modern, urban paranormal sci-fi, a
witch gathering supplies.)
I have one! No, I have two! and they are the only dishes
that I know that I have had for 55 years. They are two small
ceramic bowls, solid and attractive. They are intended for use
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramekin#/media/File:Two_ramekins.jpg
Mine are ceramic like the one on the right, and use the same colors. Mine
have the off-white on the inside, and the deep brown covers
the outside. Mine have tapered walls, shallower than the (white)
ramekin on the left.
I inherited these ramekins, so to speak, when they were left in the oven
of the apartment I rented in 1969. (The landlord told me to keep them; the
prior tenant had died, and someone unrelated had cleared the apartment.
Except for two ramekins
in the oven and a potted plant in the living room. The plant
soon died.)
Google-ngrams tells me that the word itself has become about 20-fold more
popular in the last 50 years, a steep and regular
climb. Books cited are cookbooks. So, the people I later shared a house
with probably didn't know the word. Or, if they told me, it is a strange
enough word that I didn't entirely believe them, so, I immediately forgot.
It seems to me to be a strange word, and it remains that way
How did the ramekin get its name?
The term is derived from the French ramequin, a cheese- or meat-based
dish baked in a small mould. The French term is in turn derived from
early modern Dutch rammeken, which translated to 'toast' or 'roasted
minced meat', itself apparently from ram 'battering ram' + -kin
'diminutive', but it is unclear why.

We have, and use, ramekins. Our daughter brought 20 pounds of shrimp
to Thanksgiving. The plate of shrimp was set out on the table, and
several ramekins of cocktail sauce was also set out.
BTW...why is it called "cocktail sauce" when it it not associated with
a cocktail (alcoholic beverage)?

Because that preparation of shrimp is served as nibbles with cocktails?

In Vegas, that concoction is served in a cocktail glass (there are many
shapes of cocktail glasses, so the result may vary). I think there's
also a version available in the deli section of grocery stores where
the molded glass vessel is vaguely cocktail glass shaped, with "cut
glass" facets.

Post by Snidely
You'd expect dinner shrimp to be part of a proper dish, maybe with linguini
or paired with steak. Shrimp off the barbie is a casual food that is likely
to be part of a meal.
("Shrimp off the barbie" is, for me, cultural appropriation. Prior to
certain cinematic events, I knew of "barbecued shrimp".)

Post by Tony Cooper
A bit of explanation...we rented a cabin on a lake in the Ocala
National Forest for four days Thanksgiving week. Son and family,
daughter and husband, and my wife and I stayed there. The shrimp
weren't Thanksgiving dinner; they were served another day. Daughter
lives in Jacksonville Beach and bought the shrimp right off the boat.

It's a tough life.
/dps

-d

[Adam Funk]

Post by Snidely

Post by Snidely
Sunday, Tony Cooper murmurred ...

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 01 Dec 2024 00:57:09 -0500, Rich Ulrich

Over the years, I've run across the word 'ramekin' in mentions of
kitchen-ware - not often, but a few times. Last week I saw it again, and
this time I bothered to look it up. (modern, urban paranormal sci-fi, a
witch gathering supplies.)
I have one! No, I have two! and they are the only dishes
that I know that I have had for 55 years. They are two small
ceramic bowls, solid and attractive. They are intended for use
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramekin#/media/File:Two_ramekins.jpg
Mine are ceramic like the one on the right, and use the same colors. Mine
have the off-white on the inside, and the deep brown covers
the outside. Mine have tapered walls, shallower than the (white)
ramekin on the left.
I inherited these ramekins, so to speak, when they were left in the oven
of the apartment I rented in 1969. (The landlord told me to keep them; the
prior tenant had died, and someone unrelated had cleared the apartment.
Except for two ramekins
in the oven and a potted plant in the living room. The plant
soon died.)
Google-ngrams tells me that the word itself has become about 20-fold more
popular in the last 50 years, a steep and regular
climb. Books cited are cookbooks. So, the people I later shared a house
with probably didn't know the word. Or, if they told me, it is a strange
enough word that I didn't entirely believe them, so, I immediately forgot.
It seems to me to be a strange word, and it remains that way
How did the ramekin get its name?
The term is derived from the French ramequin, a cheese- or meat-based
dish baked in a small mould. The French term is in turn derived from
early modern Dutch rammeken, which translated to 'toast' or 'roasted
minced meat', itself apparently from ram 'battering ram' + -kin
'diminutive', but it is unclear why.

We have, and use, ramekins. Our daughter brought 20 pounds of shrimp
to Thanksgiving. The plate of shrimp was set out on the table, and
several ramekins of cocktail sauce was also set out.
BTW...why is it called "cocktail sauce" when it it not associated with
a cocktail (alcoholic beverage)?

Because that preparation of shrimp is served as nibbles with cocktails?

In Vegas, that concoction is served in a cocktail glass (there are many

Isn't what happens there supposed to stay there?

Post by Snidely
shapes of cocktail glasses, so the result may vary). I think there's
also a version available in the deli section of grocery stores where
the molded glass vessel is vaguely cocktail glass shaped, with "cut
glass" facets.

[Snidely]

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Snidely

Post by Snidely
Sunday, Tony Cooper murmurred ...

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 01 Dec 2024 00:57:09 -0500, Rich Ulrich

Over the years, I've run across the word 'ramekin' in mentions of
kitchen-ware - not often, but a few times. Last week I saw it again, and
this time I bothered to look it up. (modern, urban paranormal sci-fi, a
witch gathering supplies.)
I have one! No, I have two! and they are the only dishes
that I know that I have had for 55 years. They are two small
ceramic bowls, solid and attractive. They are intended for use
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramekin#/media/File:Two_ramekins.jpg
Mine are ceramic like the one on the right, and use the same colors. Mine
have the off-white on the inside, and the deep brown covers
the outside. Mine have tapered walls, shallower than the (white)
ramekin on the left.
I inherited these ramekins, so to speak, when they were left in the oven
of the apartment I rented in 1969. (The landlord told me to keep them;
the prior tenant had died, and someone unrelated had cleared the
apartment. Except for two ramekins
in the oven and a potted plant in the living room. The plant
soon died.)
Google-ngrams tells me that the word itself has become about 20-fold more
popular in the last 50 years, a steep and regular
climb. Books cited are cookbooks. So, the people I later shared a house
with probably didn't know the word. Or, if they told me, it is a strange
enough word that I didn't entirely believe them, so, I immediately forgot.
It seems to me to be a strange word, and it remains that way
How did the ramekin get its name?
The term is derived from the French ramequin, a cheese- or meat-based
dish baked in a small mould. The French term is in turn derived from
early modern Dutch rammeken, which translated to 'toast' or 'roasted
minced meat', itself apparently from ram 'battering ram' + -kin
'diminutive', but it is unclear why.

We have, and use, ramekins. Our daughter brought 20 pounds of shrimp
to Thanksgiving. The plate of shrimp was set out on the table, and
several ramekins of cocktail sauce was also set out.
BTW...why is it called "cocktail sauce" when it it not associated with
a cocktail (alcoholic beverage)?

Because that preparation of shrimp is served as nibbles with cocktails?

In Vegas, that concoction is served in a cocktail glass (there are many

Isn't what happens there supposed to stay there?

Well, I'm sure at least one meal became compost somewhere else.

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Snidely
shapes of cocktail glasses, so the result may vary). I think there's
also a version available in the deli section of grocery stores where
the molded glass vessel is vaguely cocktail glass shaped, with "cut
glass" facets.

/dps

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Snidely
("Shrimp off the barbie" is, for me, cultural appropriation. Prior
to certain cinematic events, I knew of "barbecued shrimp".)

Although that phrase was apparently introduced to Americans by an
Australian actor, it's equally foreign to Australians. We don't call
them shrimp. For us, they're prawns.

We reserve the word "shrimp" for the little things that Europeans call
scampi. Those aren't readily available in this country, so we don't eat
them. We do use the word metaphorically to mean anything small and
undersized.

[Snidely]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Snidely
("Shrimp off the barbie" is, for me, cultural appropriation. Prior
to certain cinematic events, I knew of "barbecued shrimp".)

Although that phrase was apparently introduced to Americans by an
Australian actor, it's equally foreign to Australians. We don't call
them shrimp. For us, they're prawns.
We reserve the word "shrimp" for the little things that Europeans call
scampi. Those aren't readily available in this country, so we don't eat
them. We do use the word metaphorically to mean anything small and
undersized.

Prawns, for me, are mostly Chinese takeout. I think those familiar
with New Orleans ("Norleens") cuisine may have a broader usage.

/dps

[Mike Spencer]

Post by Snidely

Post by Snidely
("Shrimp off the barbie" is, for me, cultural appropriation. Prior
to certain cinematic events, I knew of "barbecued shrimp".)

"..off the barbie"? Never encountered that locution before. Maybe I
don't get out to attend patio/deck social events enough.

Post by Snidely
Prawns, for me, are mostly Chinese takeout. I think those familiar
with New Orleans ("Norleens") cuisine may have a broader usage.

I have it on good authority that it's "Nyawlins".

[lar3ryca]

Post by Mike Spencer

Post by Snidely

Post by Snidely
("Shrimp off the barbie" is, for me, cultural appropriation. Prior
to certain cinematic events, I knew of "barbecued shrimp".)

"..off the barbie"? Never encountered that locution before. Maybe I
don't get out to attend patio/deck social events enough.

Post by Snidely
Prawns, for me, are mostly Chinese takeout. I think those familiar
with New Orleans ("Norleens") cuisine may have a broader usage.

I have it on good authority that it's "Nyawlins".

More like 'Nawlins'< I think.

Here is Saskatchewan, there are severaltowns that have a pronunciation
that differs between the way a resident says it, and the way most others
say it.

One example is Moosomin, pronounced 'Moosmin' by residents of that town,
and Moose-min by most non-residents.

[Chris Elvidge]

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Mike Spencer

Post by Snidely

Post by Snidely
("Shrimp off the barbie" is, for me, cultural appropriation. Prior
to certain cinematic events, I knew of "barbecued shrimp".)

"..off the barbie"? Never encountered that locution before. Maybe I
don't get out to attend patio/deck social events enough.

Post by Snidely
Prawns, for me, are mostly Chinese takeout. I think those familiar
with New Orleans ("Norleens") cuisine may have a broader usage.

I have it on good authority that it's "Nyawlins".

More like 'Nawlins'< I think.
Here is Saskatchewan, there are severaltowns that have a pronunciation
that differs between the way a resident says it, and the way most others
say it.
One example is Moosomin, pronounced 'Moosmin' by residents of that town,
and Moose-min by most non-residents.

I give you Magdalene Bridge in Oxford.

[Adam Funk]

Post by Chris Elvidge

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Mike Spencer

Post by Snidely

Post by Snidely
("Shrimp off the barbie" is, for me, cultural appropriation. Prior
to certain cinematic events, I knew of "barbecued shrimp".)

"..off the barbie"? Never encountered that locution before. Maybe I
don't get out to attend patio/deck social events enough.

Post by Snidely
Prawns, for me, are mostly Chinese takeout. I think those familiar
with New Orleans ("Norleens") cuisine may have a broader usage.

I have it on good authority that it's "Nyawlins".

More like 'Nawlins'< I think.
Here is Saskatchewan, there are severaltowns that have a pronunciation
that differs between the way a resident says it, and the way most others
say it.
One example is Moosomin, pronounced 'Moosmin' by residents of that town,
and Moose-min by most non-residents.

I give you Magdalene Bridge in Oxford.

And the street, the college, & the church, with several spellings &
two (AFAIK) pronunciations.

[charles]

Post by Chris Elvidge

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Mike Spencer

Post by Snidely

Post by Snidely
("Shrimp off the barbie" is, for me, cultural appropriation.
Prior to certain cinematic events, I knew of "barbecued shrimp".)

"..off the barbie"? Never encountered that locution before. Maybe I
don't get out to attend patio/deck social events enough.

Post by Snidely
Prawns, for me, are mostly Chinese takeout. I think those familiar
with New Orleans ("Norleens") cuisine may have a broader usage.

I have it on good authority that it's "Nyawlins".

More like 'Nawlins'< I think.
Here is Saskatchewan, there are severaltowns that have a pronunciation
that differs between the way a resident says it, and the way most
others say it.
One example is Moosomin, pronounced 'Moosmin' by residents of that
town, and Moose-min by most non-residents.

I give you Magdalene Bridge in Oxford.

And the street, the college, & the church, with several spellings & two
(AFAIK) pronunciations.

If my memory serves me correctly, the Oxford Magdalen doesn't have a final
'e', but the Cambridge one does.

[Adam Funk]

Post by charles

Post by Chris Elvidge
I give you Magdalene Bridge in Oxford.

And the street, the college, & the church, with several spellings & two
(AFAIK) pronunciations.

If my memory serves me correctly, the Oxford Magdalen doesn't have a final
'e', but the Cambridge one does.

Wikipedia confirms that, & says both are pronounced /ˈmɔːdlɪn/
MAWD-lin.

But I was wrong about "several spellings" in Oxford (which is what I
had in mind).

Magdalen Street is a short shopping street in central Oxford,
England, just north of the original north gate in the city
walls.[1] Traditionally, the name of the street is pronounced
/ˈmæɡdəlɪn/ and not as the name of the Magdalen College, which is
always /ˈmɔːdlɪn/.[2]

Magdalen Bridge /ˈmɔːdlɪn/ spans the divided stream of the River
Cherwell just to the east of the City of Oxford, England, and next
to Magdalen College, whence it gets its name and pronunciation.[1]

St Mary Magdalen is a Church of England parish church in Magdalen
Street, Oxford, England, dedicated to Jesus' companion Mary
Magdalene. It is one of the city's ancient parish churches and is a
Grade I listed building.[1]

[No pronunciation guide, but I expect it's the usual trisyllable.]

(Coincidentally, St Mary Magdalene's church in Toronto is on the list
of places I want to visit, because Robertson Davies attended it as a
student.)

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by charles

Post by Chris Elvidge

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Mike Spencer

Post by Snidely

Post by Snidely
("Shrimp off the barbie" is, for me, cultural appropriation.
Prior to certain cinematic events, I knew of "barbecued shrimp".)

"..off the barbie"? Never encountered that locution before. Maybe I
don't get out to attend patio/deck social events enough.

Post by Snidely
Prawns, for me, are mostly Chinese takeout. I think those familiar
with New Orleans ("Norleens") cuisine may have a broader usage.

I have it on good authority that it's "Nyawlins".

More like 'Nawlins'< I think.
Here is Saskatchewan, there are severaltowns that have a pronunciation
that differs between the way a resident says it, and the way most
others say it.
One example is Moosomin, pronounced 'Moosmin' by residents of that
town, and Moose-min by most non-residents.

I give you Magdalene Bridge in Oxford.

And the street, the college, & the church, with several spellings & two
(AFAIK) pronunciations.

If my memory serves me correctly, the Oxford Magdalen doesn't have a final
'e', but the Cambridge one does.

Preplagiarized again.

[charles]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by charles

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Chris Elvidge

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Mike Spencer

Post by Snidely

Post by Snidely
("Shrimp off the barbie" is, for me, cultural appropriation.
Prior to certain cinematic events, I knew of "barbecued shrimp".)

"..off the barbie"? Never encountered that locution before. Maybe
I don't get out to attend patio/deck social events enough.

Post by Snidely
Prawns, for me, are mostly Chinese takeout. I think those
familiar with New Orleans ("Norleens") cuisine may have a broader
usage.

I have it on good authority that it's "Nyawlins".

More like 'Nawlins'< I think.
Here is Saskatchewan, there are severaltowns that have a
pronunciation that differs between the way a resident says it, and
the way most others say it.
One example is Moosomin, pronounced 'Moosmin' by residents of that
town, and Moose-min by most non-residents.

I give you Magdalene Bridge in Oxford.

And the street, the college, & the church, with several spellings &
two (AFAIK) pronunciations.

If my memory serves me correctly, the Oxford Magdalen doesn't have a
final 'e', but the Cambridge one does.

Preplagiarized again.

yes. My excuse is that I matriculated at Magdalene in 1959

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by charles

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by charles

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Chris Elvidge

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Mike Spencer

Post by Snidely

Post by Snidely
("Shrimp off the barbie" is, for me, cultural appropriation.
Prior to certain cinematic events, I knew of "barbecued shrimp".)

"..off the barbie"? Never encountered that locution before. Maybe
I don't get out to attend patio/deck social events enough.

Post by Snidely
Prawns, for me, are mostly Chinese takeout. I think those
familiar with New Orleans ("Norleens") cuisine may have a broader
usage.

I have it on good authority that it's "Nyawlins".

More like 'Nawlins'< I think.
Here is Saskatchewan, there are severaltowns that have a
pronunciation that differs between the way a resident says it, and
the way most others say it.
One example is Moosomin, pronounced 'Moosmin' by residents of that
town, and Moose-min by most non-residents.

I give you Magdalene Bridge in Oxford.

And the street, the college, & the church, with several spellings &
two (AFAIK) pronunciations.

If my memory serves me correctly, the Oxford Magdalen doesn't have a
final 'e', but the Cambridge one does.

Preplagiarized again.

yes. My excuse is that I matriculated at Magdalene in 1959

I've never been to Magdalene, but I've seen Magdalen many times (the
nicest-looking college in Oxford) and stayed there for a research
conference once (not in winter, but it felt like it). We overlapped
with an academic meeting about Harry Potter.

[Brian]

Post by charles
yes. My excuse is that I matriculated at Magdalene in 1959

Coincidence.
I started at Trinity the same year.

I was delayed for a year by the ending of National (compulsory military)
Service. Cambridge generally required people to complete their service
before going up, so when it ended there were two years-worth of
applicants trying for places at the same time. They smoothed that out
by making some people wait. It also meant that it was harder to get
accepted that year.

--brian

[Chris Elvidge]

Post by charles

Post by Chris Elvidge

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Mike Spencer

Post by Snidely

Post by Snidely
("Shrimp off the barbie" is, for me, cultural appropriation.
Prior to certain cinematic events, I knew of "barbecued shrimp".)

"..off the barbie"? Never encountered that locution before. Maybe I
don't get out to attend patio/deck social events enough.

Post by Snidely
Prawns, for me, are mostly Chinese takeout. I think those familiar
with New Orleans ("Norleens") cuisine may have a broader usage.

I have it on good authority that it's "Nyawlins".

More like 'Nawlins'< I think.
Here is Saskatchewan, there are severaltowns that have a pronunciation
that differs between the way a resident says it, and the way most
others say it.
One example is Moosomin, pronounced 'Moosmin' by residents of that
town, and Moose-min by most non-residents.

I give you Magdalene Bridge in Oxford.

And the street, the college, & the church, with several spellings & two
(AFAIK) pronunciations.

If my memory serves me correctly, the Oxford Magdalen doesn't have a final
'e', but the Cambridge one does.

I thought so, too. But speelchucker disagreed.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Chris Elvidge

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Mike Spencer

Post by Snidely

Post by Snidely
("Shrimp off the barbie" is, for me, cultural appropriation. Prior
to certain cinematic events, I knew of "barbecued shrimp".)

"..off the barbie"? Never encountered that locution before. Maybe I
don't get out to attend patio/deck social events enough.

Post by Snidely
Prawns, for me, are mostly Chinese takeout. I think those familiar
with New Orleans ("Norleens") cuisine may have a broader usage.

I have it on good authority that it's "Nyawlins".

More like 'Nawlins'< I think.
Here is Saskatchewan, there are severaltowns that have a pronunciation
that differs between the way a resident says it, and the way most
others say it.
One example is Moosomin, pronounced 'Moosmin' by residents of that
town, and Moose-min by most non-residents.

I give you Magdalene Bridge in Oxford.

Magdalen. Magdalene is in the other place.

[Adam Funk]

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Mike Spencer

Post by Snidely

Post by Snidely
("Shrimp off the barbie" is, for me, cultural appropriation. Prior
to certain cinematic events, I knew of "barbecued shrimp".)

"..off the barbie"? Never encountered that locution before. Maybe I
don't get out to attend patio/deck social events enough.

Post by Snidely
Prawns, for me, are mostly Chinese takeout. I think those familiar
with New Orleans ("Norleens") cuisine may have a broader usage.

I have it on good authority that it's "Nyawlins".

More like 'Nawlins'< I think.

That's what I thought.

Post by lar3ryca
Here is Saskatchewan, there are severaltowns that have a pronunciation
that differs between the way a resident says it, and the way most others
say it.
One example is Moosomin, pronounced 'Moosmin' by residents of that town,
and Moose-min by most non-residents.

[Mike Spencer]

Post by Adam Funk

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Mike Spencer

Post by Snidely
Prawns, for me, are mostly Chinese takeout. I think those familiar
with New Orleans ("Norleens") cuisine may have a broader usage.

I have it on good authority that it's "Nyawlins".

More like 'Nawlins'< I think.

That's what I thought.

My single data point is from 1948. My mother -- Texas bred but
naturalized Prunepicker thereafter -- explicitly inquired about the
pronunciation of an old (from the point of view of a 5-year old :-)
Black woman on the outskirts of New Orleans. She said, "We jes calls
it Nyawlins."

The only reason for mentioning that the informant was Black is that
she was the first Black person I had ever seen close up, to talk to.
Not that I had been inculcated with racist memes, only that it was a
Strange New Thing to a little kid.

[lar3ryca]

Post by Mike Spencer

Post by Adam Funk

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Mike Spencer

Post by Snidely
Prawns, for me, are mostly Chinese takeout. I think those familiar
with New Orleans ("Norleens") cuisine may have a broader usage.

I have it on good authority that it's "Nyawlins".

More like 'Nawlins'< I think.

That's what I thought.

My single data point is from 1948. My mother -- Texas bred but
naturalized Prunepicker thereafter -- explicitly inquired about the
pronunciation of an old (from the point of view of a 5-year old :-)
Black woman on the outskirts of New Orleans. She said, "We jes calls
it Nyawlins."
The only reason for mentioning that the informant was Black is that
she was the first Black person I had ever seen close up, to talk to.
Not that I had been inculcated with racist memes, only that it was a
Strange New Thing to a little kid.

A fellow visiting Hawaii asked a resident,
"How do you pronounce the name of the state? Is it 'Ha-why-ee' or
'Ha-vy-ee'"?

"Ha-vy-ee".

"Thank you"

"You're velcome".

[Anders D. Nygaard]

Post by Peter Moylan

("Shrimp off the barbie" is, for me, cultural appropriation.  Prior
to certain cinematic events, I knew of "barbecued shrimp".)

Although that phrase was apparently introduced to Americans by an
Australian actor, it's equally foreign to Australians. We don't call
them shrimp. For us, they're prawns.
We reserve the word "shrimp" for the little things that Europeans call
scampi.

Strange. To me, scampi are larger than shrimp; the latter are
proverbially small.

Post by Peter Moylan
Those aren't readily available in this country, so we don't eat
them. We do use the word metaphorically to mean anything small and
undersized.

/Anders, Denmark

[Tony Cooper]

On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 19:05:15 +0100, "Anders D. Nygaard"

Post by Anders D. Nygaard

Post by Peter Moylan

("Shrimp off the barbie" is, for me, cultural appropriation.  Prior
to certain cinematic events, I knew of "barbecued shrimp".)

Although that phrase was apparently introduced to Americans by an
Australian actor, it's equally foreign to Australians. We don't call
them shrimp. For us, they're prawns.
We reserve the word "shrimp" for the little things that Europeans call
scampi.

Strange. To me, scampi are larger than shrimp; the latter are
proverbially small.

Post by Peter Moylan
Those aren't readily available in this country, so we don't eat
them. We do use the word metaphorically to mean anything small and
undersized.

/Anders, Denmark

Seen in the supermarket: "Extra Large Shrimp" next to the regular
shrimp. Slight difference in size.

[Silvano]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 19:05:15 +0100, "Anders D. Nygaard"

Post by Anders D. Nygaard

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Snidely
("Shrimp off the barbie" is, for me, cultural appropriation. Prior
to certain cinematic events, I knew of "barbecued shrimp".)

Although that phrase was apparently introduced to Americans by an
Australian actor, it's equally foreign to Australians. We don't call
them shrimp. For us, they're prawns.
We reserve the word "shrimp" for the little things that Europeans call
scampi.

Strange. To me, scampi are larger than shrimp; the latter are
proverbially small.

Post by Peter Moylan
Those aren't readily available in this country, so we don't eat
them. We do use the word metaphorically to mean anything small and
undersized.

/Anders, Denmark

Seen in the supermarket: "Extra Large Shrimp" next to the regular
shrimp. Slight difference in size.

Are your shrimps larger or smaller than scampi? Or do you have no
scampis in the US?

Can someone give us foreigners a table explaining the meaning of
scampis, shrimps, prawns and other appropriate words in different parts
of the Anglosphere?

[Tony Cooper]

On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 23:28:10 +0100, Silvano

Post by Silvano

Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 19:05:15 +0100, "Anders D. Nygaard"

Post by Anders D. Nygaard

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Snidely
("Shrimp off the barbie" is, for me, cultural appropriation. Prior
to certain cinematic events, I knew of "barbecued shrimp".)

Although that phrase was apparently introduced to Americans by an
Australian actor, it's equally foreign to Australians. We don't call
them shrimp. For us, they're prawns.
We reserve the word "shrimp" for the little things that Europeans call
scampi.

Strange. To me, scampi are larger than shrimp; the latter are
proverbially small.

Post by Peter Moylan
Those aren't readily available in this country, so we don't eat
them. We do use the word metaphorically to mean anything small and
undersized.

/Anders, Denmark

Seen in the supermarket: "Extra Large Shrimp" next to the regular
shrimp. Slight difference in size.

Are your shrimps larger or smaller than scampi? Or do you have no
scampis in the US?

To me, "shrimp" is the crustacean and "scampi" is one recipe that
contains shrimp. (I would normally say "scampi" is the dish, but I
don't want anyone to think that I mean "dish" in "plate" meaning.)

Sometime I'll hear people say they ordered "shrimp scampi" at the
restaurant, but - to me - that's redundant. All scampi contains
shrimp.

I understand what is meant when I see/hear "prawns" used, but do not
use the word. I would expect to see "prawns" on the menu only at
"Outback Steakhouse" (an Australian-themed restaurant chain)

Post by Silvano
Can someone give us foreigners a table explaining the meaning of
scampis, shrimps, prawns and other appropriate words in different parts
of the Anglosphere?

I don't recognize "shrimps" as a description of the crustacean. It's
"shrimp" if there's one or a dozen. However, it's possible to
describe a group of shorter-than-normal people as a "bunch of
shrimps".

Shrimp, in one form or another, is often on the menu around here. We
get fresh shrimp right off the boat. We're a few miles from the ocean
where I live, but it's a short drive to the docks.

[jerryfriedman]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 23:28:10 +0100, Silvano

..

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Silvano
Are your shrimps larger or smaller than scampi? Or do you have no
scampis in the US?

To me, "shrimp" is the crustacean and "scampi" is one recipe that
contains shrimp. (I would normally say "scampi" is the dish, but I
don't want anyone to think that I mean "dish" in "plate" meaning.)
Sometime I'll hear people say they ordered "shrimp scampi" at the
restaurant, but - to me - that's redundant. All scampi contains
shrimp.

I agree with Tony's understanding of the American
meaning. "Shrimp scampi" is unbreaded shrimp (BrAusEtcE
"prawns") sauteed with butter and garlic and probably
lemon. Wikipedia says the recipe uses olive oil, not
butter, and contains white wine, but I think that here
that would be the luxury version.

I do know that in Italian, a scampo is a crustacean, though
I had to look it up to be reminded that it's a lobster-y
thing (Langoustine aka Norway Lobster aka Dublin Bay Prawn),
not a shrimp or prawn, not that I'm clear on the taxonomic
differences.

Post by Tony Cooper
I understand what is meant when I see/hear "prawns" used, but do not
use the word. I would expect to see "prawns" on the menu only at
"Outback Steakhouse" (an Australian-themed restaurant chain)

..

Further agreement.

Post by Tony Cooper
Shrimp, in one form or another, is often on the menu around here. We
get fresh shrimp right off the boat. We're a few miles from the ocean
where I live, but it's a short drive to the docks.

I could live with that.

--
Jerry Friedman

--

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Tony Cooper
Shrimp, in one form or another, is often on the menu around here.
We get fresh shrimp right off the boat. We're a few miles from the
ocean where I live, but it's a short drive to the docks.

Fresh prawns are especially popular here at Christmas. The fish markets
are packed solid in the days leading up to Christmas Day. Legs of ham
are another popular purchase (from the supermarket, not at the wharves).

WIWAL the Christmas dinners were British-style. Hot cooked poultry,
roast vegetables, plum pudding, and so on. We wore suits and suffered in
the heat. These days a Christmas lunch might be outside (if you have too
many people to fit in the house) or in an air-conditioned house. In
either case the food will be cold: cold meats, salads, prawns on ice,
and so on. For dessert, probably ice cream and different kinds of
melon. Our Christmas cards still show snow scenes, but that's our only
concession to northern hemisphere tradition.

Googling tells me that shrimp do exist in Australia. The main source
appears to be Queensland waters, so they're not likely to be found at
the Newcastle Fisherman's Co-op. I gather that the main visible
difference is that prawns are peeled before eating, while shrimp are too
small to peel.

[Tony Cooper]

Post by Peter Moylan
Googling tells me that shrimp do exist in Australia. The main source
appears to be Queensland waters, so they're not likely to be found at
the Newcastle Fisherman's Co-op. I gather that the main visible
difference is that prawns are peeled before eating, while shrimp are too
small to peel.

What? Having peeled quite a few shrimp in the last week I have to
disagree totally. Shrimp have a stiff, clear outer "skin" that is
undigestable and unpleasant in the mouth if not removed.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Peter Moylan
Googling tells me that shrimp do exist in Australia. The main
source appears to be Queensland waters, so they're not likely to be
found at the Newcastle Fisherman's Co-op. I gather that the main
visible difference is that prawns are peeled before eating, while
shrimp are too small to peel.

What? Having peeled quite a few shrimp in the last week I have to
disagree totally. Shrimp have a stiff, clear outer "skin" that is
undigestable and unpleasant in the mouth if not removed.

i was referring to non-American shrimp, which are a lot smaller than
prawns (and a different species). I think we've established that
American shrimp are the same animals as prawns elsewhere.

[Tony Cooper]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Peter Moylan
Googling tells me that shrimp do exist in Australia. The main
source appears to be Queensland waters, so they're not likely to be
found at the Newcastle Fisherman's Co-op. I gather that the main
visible difference is that prawns are peeled before eating, while
shrimp are too small to peel.

What? Having peeled quite a few shrimp in the last week I have to
disagree totally. Shrimp have a stiff, clear outer "skin" that is
undigestable and unpleasant in the mouth if not removed.

i was referring to non-American shrimp, which are a lot smaller than
prawns (and a different species). I think we've established that
American shrimp are the same animals as prawns elsewhere.

"A lot smaller" isn't very clear to me. Web sources say shrimp are
"smaller" than prawns, but I've only seen the one type so I can't
follow a comparison.

I did find a source that says prawns usually live in freshwater, and
shrimp live mostly in saltwater. That would mean I've only seen
shrimp, as what is found down here are from salt water.

The source also says the prawn body does not have much of a bend, and
what we have down here does have a significent curl to the body.

What I can say is that no Florida source offers prawns by that name.
If you want them, you buy shrimp.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Peter Moylan

On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 16:08:42 +1100, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan
Googling tells me that shrimp do exist in Australia. The main
source appears to be Queensland waters, so they're not likely
to be found at the Newcastle Fisherman's Co-op. I gather that
the main visible difference is that prawns are peeled before
eating, while shrimp are too small to peel.

What? Having peeled quite a few shrimp in the last week I have
to disagree totally. Shrimp have a stiff, clear outer "skin"
that is undigestable and unpleasant in the mouth if not removed.

i was referring to non-American shrimp, which are a lot smaller
than prawns (and a different species). I think we've established
that American shrimp are the same animals as prawns elsewhere.

"A lot smaller" isn't very clear to me. Web sources say shrimp are
"smaller" than prawns, but I've only seen the one type so I can't
follow a comparison.
I did find a source that says prawns usually live in freshwater, and
shrimp live mostly in saltwater. That would mean I've only seen
shrimp, as what is found down here are from salt water.
The source also says the prawn body does not have much of a bend, and
what we have down here does have a significent curl to the body.
What I can say is that no Florida source offers prawns by that name.
If you want them, you buy shrimp.

This turns out to be enormously difficult to Google. Practically every
web site uses the American definition, i.e. they use shrimp as the name
of what I call prawns. They simply ignore the existence of shrimp whose
size is in the millimetre range.

One thing I did learn: what are called prawns in the US are the same as
what we call tiger prawns or king prawns. These are larger than the
average prawn. So the web sources have good coverage of the large size
range, but more or less ignore the shrimpy sizes.

I was wrong in my earlier statements about scampi. Scampi, aka
langoustines, can be quite large. So now I don't know the name of the
small grey European things that I remember.

[jerryfriedman]

On Thu, 5 Dec 2024 0:45:02 +0000, Peter Moylan wrote:

[shrimp and prawns]

Post by Peter Moylan
This turns out to be enormously difficult to Google. Practically every
web site uses the American definition, i.e. they use shrimp as the name
of what I call prawns. They simply ignore the existence of shrimp whose
size is in the millimetre range.

AmE "popcorn shrimp".

Post by Peter Moylan
One thing I did learn: what are called prawns in the US are the same as
what we call tiger prawns or king prawns. These are larger than the
average prawn.

..

Much more likely to be called tiger shrimp here, in my
experience.

--
Jerry Friedman

--

[lar3ryca]

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Peter Moylan
Googling tells me that shrimp do exist in Australia. The main
source appears to be Queensland waters, so they're not likely to be
found at the Newcastle Fisherman's Co-op. I gather that the main
visible difference is that prawns are peeled before eating, while
shrimp are too small to peel.

What? Having peeled quite a few shrimp in the last week I have to
disagree totally. Shrimp have a stiff, clear outer "skin" that is
undigestable and unpleasant in the mouth if not removed.

i was referring to non-American shrimp, which are a lot smaller than
prawns (and a different species). I think we've established that
American shrimp are the same animals as prawns elsewhere.

"A lot smaller" isn't very clear to me. Web sources say shrimp are
"smaller" than prawns, but I've only seen the one type so I can't
follow a comparison.
I did find a source that says prawns usually live in freshwater, and
shrimp live mostly in saltwater. That would mean I've only seen
shrimp, as what is found down here are from salt water.

That is definitely not the case on the west coast of Canada. There,
prawns are found in salt water only. The only thing somewhat similar to
be found in fresh water there, are crawfish. That's what we called them.
They are also known in other places as crayfish or crawdads.

Post by Tony Cooper
The source also says the prawn body does not have much of a bend, and
what we have down here does have a significent curl to the body.
What I can say is that no Florida source offers prawns by that name.
If you want them, you buy shrimp.

While on a course in Tampa, our instructor invited my wife and I to
supper, and we were treated to a huge feed of rock shrimp. They were
delicious. I left there VERY full. I don't think I ate three pounds of
them, but it sure felt like it.

[Tony Cooper]

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Peter Moylan
Googling tells me that shrimp do exist in Australia. The main
source appears to be Queensland waters, so they're not likely to be
found at the Newcastle Fisherman's Co-op. I gather that the main
visible difference is that prawns are peeled before eating, while
shrimp are too small to peel.

What? Having peeled quite a few shrimp in the last week I have to
disagree totally. Shrimp have a stiff, clear outer "skin" that is
undigestable and unpleasant in the mouth if not removed.

i was referring to non-American shrimp, which are a lot smaller than
prawns (and a different species). I think we've established that
American shrimp are the same animals as prawns elsewhere.

"A lot smaller" isn't very clear to me. Web sources say shrimp are
"smaller" than prawns, but I've only seen the one type so I can't
follow a comparison.
I did find a source that says prawns usually live in freshwater, and
shrimp live mostly in saltwater. That would mean I've only seen
shrimp, as what is found down here are from salt water.

That is definitely not the case on the west coast of Canada. There,
prawns are found in salt water only. The only thing somewhat similar to
be found in fresh water there, are crawfish. That's what we called them.
They are also known in other places as crayfish or crawdads.

Post by Tony Cooper
The source also says the prawn body does not have much of a bend, and
what we have down here does have a significent curl to the body.
What I can say is that no Florida source offers prawns by that name.
If you want them, you buy shrimp.

While on a course in Tampa, our instructor invited my wife and I to
supper, and we were treated to a huge feed of rock shrimp. They were
delicious. I left there VERY full. I don't think I ate three pounds of
them, but it sure felt like it.

Florida, as you know, has the Atlantic Ocean on the east coast and the
Gulf of Mexico on the west coast.

"Rock shrimp" are found only on the west coast, and taken from the
Gulf of Mexico. They have a hard shell and some say taste similar to
lobster. I ordered shrimp in a Clearwater restaurant, and was served
rock shrimp. I had no idea there was such a thing until the waiter
brought them to the table. They were served with melted butter in a
ramekin instad of the red cocktail sauce east coast shrimp are served
with.

I've never seen them in supermarkets in Orlando, although we're not
that far from the west coast. Even Lombardi's (the area's largest
seafood supplier) doesn't offer them even though they sell Maine
lobster and stone crab claws that are brought in from further away.

https://lombardis.storebyweb.com/s/1000-1/

[Snidely]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Peter Moylan
Googling tells me that shrimp do exist in Australia. The main
source appears to be Queensland waters, so they're not likely to be
found at the Newcastle Fisherman's Co-op. I gather that the main
visible difference is that prawns are peeled before eating, while
shrimp are too small to peel.

What? Having peeled quite a few shrimp in the last week I have to
disagree totally. Shrimp have a stiff, clear outer "skin" that is
undigestable and unpleasant in the mouth if not removed.

i was referring to non-American shrimp, which are a lot smaller than
prawns (and a different species). I think we've established that
American shrimp are the same animals as prawns elsewhere.

There are different sizes in the supermarkets, especially if you look
in the frozen foods. A common size is about the size of my little
finger (which I can still curl), so unwinds to 2-3 in or 5-7 cm. I
think the smallest size would cover my thumbnail. What I'm used to as
prawns in Chinese restaurants might be 8 inches. Hmm, I need to
fact-check myself on the next shopping trip.

/dps

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Peter Moylan
Googling tells me that shrimp do exist in Australia. The main source
appears to be Queensland waters, so they're not likely to be found at
the Newcastle Fisherman's Co-op. I gather that the main visible
difference is that prawns are peeled before eating, while shrimp are too
small to peel.

What? Having peeled quite a few shrimp in the last week I have to
disagree totally. Shrimp have a stiff, clear outer "skin" that is
undigestable and unpleasant in the mouth if not removed.

You probably have enough cheap, exploited labour there
to do the peeling, for the ready-peeled shrimps in the shops.
I gave up on them when I learned that nowadays
some of the local shrimps are flown out to Morocco,
peeled there by their cheap labour, and flown back.
Half their price must be for jet fuel,

Jan

[Aidan Kehoe]

[...] Can someone give us foreigners a table explaining the meaning of
scampis, shrimps, prawns and other appropriate words in different parts of
the Anglosphere?

I’m uncertain of what is most usual in Ireland as the word used in English for
the species; it’s probably prawns, but it’s very common that the name on the
menu is in another language. “Gambas al ajillo” was popular for a while. And
the other thing is that we would often eat them on holiday somewhere in the
Mediterranean, where the localisation of translation into English is not
guaranteed to be careful.

Sorry not to be more help. Maybe I’ll take up cooking when I retire and be
better able to answer your question then.

[Chris Elvidge]

Post by Aidan Kehoe

[...] Can someone give us foreigners a table explaining the meaning of
scampis, shrimps, prawns and other appropriate words in different parts of
the Anglosphere?

I’m uncertain of what is most usual in Ireland as the word used in English for
the species; it’s probably prawns, but it’s very common that the name on the
menu is in another language. “Gambas al ajillo” was popular for a while. And

Still popular.

Post by Aidan Kehoe
the other thing is that we would often eat them on holiday somewhere in the
Mediterranean, where the localisation of translation into English is not
guaranteed to be careful.
Sorry not to be more help. Maybe I’ll take up cooking when I retire and be
better able to answer your question then.

[lar3ryca]

Post by Silvano

Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 19:05:15 +0100, "Anders D. Nygaard"

Post by Anders D. Nygaard

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Snidely
("Shrimp off the barbie" is, for me, cultural appropriation. Prior
to certain cinematic events, I knew of "barbecued shrimp".)

Although that phrase was apparently introduced to Americans by an
Australian actor, it's equally foreign to Australians. We don't call
them shrimp. For us, they're prawns.
We reserve the word "shrimp" for the little things that Europeans call
scampi.

Strange. To me, scampi are larger than shrimp; the latter are
proverbially small.

Post by Peter Moylan
Those aren't readily available in this country, so we don't eat
them. We do use the word metaphorically to mean anything small and
undersized.

/Anders, Denmark

Seen in the supermarket: "Extra Large Shrimp" next to the regular
shrimp. Slight difference in size.

Are your shrimps larger or smaller than scampi? Or do you have no
scampis in the US?
Can someone give us foreigners a table explaining the meaning of
scampis, shrimps, prawns and other appropriate words in different parts
of the Anglosphere?

In my experience, like Tony, 'scampi' is a dish.
Shrimp are between very small, say, up to the thickness a forefinger
(min, of course), and prawns are large, definitely thicker than my thumb.

[Janet]

Post by Silvano

Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 19:05:15 +0100, "Anders D. Nygaard"

Post by Anders D. Nygaard

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Snidely
("Shrimp off the barbie" is, for me, cultural appropriation. Prior
to certain cinematic events, I knew of "barbecued shrimp".)

Although that phrase was apparently introduced to Americans by an
Australian actor, it's equally foreign to Australians. We don't call
them shrimp. For us, they're prawns.
We reserve the word "shrimp" for the little things that Europeans call
scampi.

Strange. To me, scampi are larger than shrimp; the latter are
proverbially small.

Post by Peter Moylan
Those aren't readily available in this country, so we don't eat
them. We do use the word metaphorically to mean anything small and
undersized.

/Anders, Denmark

Seen in the supermarket: "Extra Large Shrimp" next to the regular
shrimp. Slight difference in size.

Are your shrimps larger or smaller than scampi? Or do you have no
scampis in the US?
Can someone give us foreigners a table explaining the meaning of
scampis, shrimps, prawns and other appropriate words in different parts
of the Anglosphere?

https://www.thefishsociety.co.uk/blogs/fishopedia/scampi

Janet

[Adam Funk]

Post by Janet

Post by Silvano

Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 19:05:15 +0100, "Anders D. Nygaard"

Post by Anders D. Nygaard

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Snidely
("Shrimp off the barbie" is, for me, cultural appropriation. Prior
to certain cinematic events, I knew of "barbecued shrimp".)

Although that phrase was apparently introduced to Americans by an
Australian actor, it's equally foreign to Australians. We don't call
them shrimp. For us, they're prawns.
We reserve the word "shrimp" for the little things that Europeans call
scampi.

Strange. To me, scampi are larger than shrimp; the latter are
proverbially small.

Post by Peter Moylan
Those aren't readily available in this country, so we don't eat
them. We do use the word metaphorically to mean anything small and
undersized.

/Anders, Denmark

Seen in the supermarket: "Extra Large Shrimp" next to the regular
shrimp. Slight difference in size.

Are your shrimps larger or smaller than scampi? Or do you have no
scampis in the US?
Can someone give us foreigners a table explaining the meaning of
scampis, shrimps, prawns and other appropriate words in different parts
of the Anglosphere?

https://www.thefishsociety.co.uk/blogs/fishopedia/scampi

"[I]t refers to the meat of just one special prawn: the langoustine"
just to further confuse matters.

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Silvano
Can someone give us foreigners a table explaining the meaning of
scampis, shrimps, prawns and other appropriate words in different parts
of the Anglosphere?

It seems to me that many fish names don't travel very well[1] - and some
names are shared by several different species.

I don't know if this is unique to English, and I suspect it is not.

[1] I read that "Dover Sole" can be found as far south as Senegal, and
in almost all of the Mediterranean. I suspect it appears under a lot of
different names.

[Adam Funk]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 01 Dec 2024 00:57:09 -0500, Rich Ulrich

Post by Rich Ulrich
Over the years, I've run across the word 'ramekin' in mentions
of kitchen-ware - not often, but a few times. Last week I saw
it again, and this time I bothered to look it up. (modern, urban
paranormal sci-fi, a witch gathering supplies.)
I have one! No, I have two! and they are the only dishes
that I know that I have had for 55 years. They are two small
ceramic bowls, solid and attractive. They are intended for use
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramekin#/media/File:Two_ramekins.jpg
Mine are ceramic like the one on the right, and use the same colors.
Mine have the off-white on the inside, and the deep brown covers
the outside. Mine have tapered walls, shallower than the (white)
ramekin on the left.
I inherited these ramekins, so to speak, when they were left in
the oven of the apartment I rented in 1969. (The landlord told
me to keep them; the prior tenant had died, and someone
unrelated had cleared the apartment. Except for two ramekins
in the oven and a potted plant in the living room. The plant
soon died.)
Google-ngrams tells me that the word itself has become about
20-fold more popular in the last 50 years, a steep and regular
climb. Books cited are cookbooks. So, the people I later shared
a house with probably didn't know the word. Or, if they told me,
it is a strange enough word that I didn't entirely believe them,
so, I immediately forgot.
It seems to me to be a strange word, and it remains that way
How did the ramekin get its name?
The term is derived from the French ramequin, a cheese- or
meat-based dish baked in a small mould. The French term is in turn
derived from early modern Dutch rammeken, which translated to
'toast' or 'roasted minced meat', itself apparently from ram
'battering ram' + -kin 'diminutive', but it is unclear why.

We have, and use, ramekins. Our daughter brought 20 pounds of shrimp
to Thanksgiving. The plate of shrimp was set out on the table, and
several ramekins of cocktail sauce was also set out.
BTW...why is it called "cocktail sauce" when it it not associated with
a cocktail (alcoholic beverage)?

also "fruit cocktail"?

[musika]

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Tony Cooper
We have, and use, ramekins. Our daughter brought 20 pounds of shrimp
to Thanksgiving. The plate of shrimp was set out on the table, and
several ramekins of cocktail sauce was also set out.
BTW...why is it called "cocktail sauce" when it it not associated with
a cocktail (alcoholic beverage)?

also "fruit cocktail"?

And cocktail sausages.

[jerryfriedman]

..

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Tony Cooper
BTW...why is it called "cocktail sauce" when it it not associated with
a cocktail (alcoholic beverage)?

also "fruit cocktail"?

Probably because they're mixtures originally served
in glasses. The OED defines this sense as

"A dish consisting of small pieces of food, such as
chopped fruit salad or shellfish in a sauce or
seasoning, which is typically served cold as an
appetizer or light refreshment, traditionally in
a glass."

Incidentally, according to Wikipedia, cocktail sauce
in the U.S is usually ketchup and horseradish (which
I knew), but in Britain is usually ketchup and
mayonnaise with other flavorings (which I didn't
know).

--
Jerry Friedman

--

[Phil]

Post by jerryfriedman
..

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Tony Cooper
BTW...why is it called "cocktail sauce" when it it not associated with
a cocktail (alcoholic beverage)?

also "fruit cocktail"?

Probably because they're mixtures originally served
in glasses.  The OED defines this sense as
"A dish consisting of small pieces of food, such as
chopped fruit salad or shellfish in a sauce or
seasoning, which is typically served cold as an
appetizer or light refreshment, traditionally in
a glass."
Incidentally, according to Wikipedia, cocktail sauce
in the U.S is usually ketchup and horseradish (which
I knew), but in Britain is usually ketchup and
mayonnaise with other flavorings (which I didn't
know).
--
Jerry Friedman
--

Yes. Back in the 1970s the sophistos would serve avocadoes with a blob
of prawn cocktail -- prawns in that mix of ketchup and mayo -- in the
hole left by the removal of the stone. Perhaps they still do, but I
haven't seen it in a while.

Come to think of it, it's also a long time since I saw a half grapefruit
spiked with cheese cubes and pineapple chunks on cocktail sticks.

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Phil

Post by jerryfriedman
..

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Tony Cooper
BTW...why is it called "cocktail sauce" when it it not associated with
a cocktail (alcoholic beverage)?

also "fruit cocktail"?

Probably because they're mixtures originally served
in glasses.  The OED defines this sense as
"A dish consisting of small pieces of food, such as
chopped fruit salad or shellfish in a sauce or
seasoning, which is typically served cold as an
appetizer or light refreshment, traditionally in
a glass."
Incidentally, according to Wikipedia, cocktail sauce
in the U.S is usually ketchup and horseradish (which
I knew), but in Britain is usually ketchup and
mayonnaise with other flavorings (which I didn't
know).
--
Jerry Friedman
--

Yes. Back in the 1970s the sophistos would serve avocadoes with a blob
of prawn cocktail -- prawns in that mix of ketchup and mayo -- in the
hole left by the removal of the stone. Perhaps they still do, but I
haven't seen it in a while.
Come to think of it, it's also a long time since I saw a half grapefruit
spiked with cheese cubes and pineapple chunks on cocktail sticks.

Along with a bottle of Mateus Rose?
(Question: Why did the bottle have such a narrow neck?)

[Adam Funk]

Post by Phil

Post by jerryfriedman
..

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Tony Cooper
BTW...why is it called "cocktail sauce" when it it not associated with
a cocktail (alcoholic beverage)?

also "fruit cocktail"?

Probably because they're mixtures originally served
in glasses.  The OED defines this sense as
"A dish consisting of small pieces of food, such as
chopped fruit salad or shellfish in a sauce or
seasoning, which is typically served cold as an
appetizer or light refreshment, traditionally in
a glass."
Incidentally, according to Wikipedia, cocktail sauce
in the U.S is usually ketchup and horseradish (which
I knew), but in Britain is usually ketchup and
mayonnaise with other flavorings (which I didn't
know).
--
Jerry Friedman
--

Yes. Back in the 1970s the sophistos would serve avocadoes with a blob
of prawn cocktail -- prawns in that mix of ketchup and mayo -- in the
hole left by the removal of the stone. Perhaps they still do, but I
haven't seen it in a while.
Come to think of it, it's also a long time since I saw a half grapefruit
spiked with cheese cubes and pineapple chunks on cocktail sticks.

And bring back the cheese logs!

[Aidan Kehoe]

[...] It seems to me to be a strange word, and it remains that way
How did the ramekin get its name?
The term is derived from the French ramequin, a cheese- or
meat-based dish baked in a small mould. The French term is in turn
derived from early modern Dutch rammeken, which translated to
'toast' or 'roasted minced meat', itself apparently from ram
'battering ram' + -kin 'diminutive', but it is unclear why.

OED2 says:

ramekin (ˈræməkɪn). Forms: 8 ramme(l)kin, 8­ ramequin, 9 ramakin, -aquin; 9­ ramekin.
[ad. F. ramequin (1690) of dub. etym. Cf. obs. Flem. rammeken toasted bread (Kilian).]
a. A small quantity of cheese, with bread-crumbs, eggs, etc., usually baked and served in a special mould. Chiefly pl.
1706 Phillips, Ramequin (Fr. in Cookery), toasted Cheese and Bread, a Toast and Cheese. Ramequins are also small slices of Bread-crum cover’d with a Farce made of pounded Cheese, Eggs and other Ingredients bak’d in a Pie-pan.
1754 Connoisseur No. 19 Toasted cheese is already buried in rammelkins.
1819 H. Busk Banquet ii. 647 Your ramekins too rich..Your fricassee too fat.
1864 A. B. Kirwan Host & Guest 198 At large dinners in London, cheese is oftenest eaten in the form of ramequins, or grated Parmesan, and other preparations.
1879 B’ham Weekly Post 8 Feb. 1/4 We had hot cheese, like ramakins.
attrib.
1894 Westm. Gaz. 2 June 8/2 Butter some small ramekin moulds.
1894 C. H. Senn Pract. Gastron. 551 Fill the mixture in little French china ramaquin cases.
b. A dish in which ramekins or other portions of food are baked and served.
1895 in Funk’s Stand. Dict.
1946 Farmhouse Fare 19 Flake fish... Mix well and pile into buttered ramekins.
1957 Housewife Sept. 89/2 Scandinavian saucepan in oven-proof pottery. There is a ramekin..in the same design.
1974 M. Babson Stalking Lamb xviii. 129 Sybilla was standing beside the oven, having just transferred the ramekins into it.
1976 Field 18 Nov. 1028 (Advt.), These superb oven proof ramekins each depict a
different game bird of Great Britain.

The Trésor de la Langue Française Informatisé says:

RAMEQUIN, subst. masc.
A. ART CULIN. Rôtie ou petite pâtisserie chaude à base de fromage. Salade impératrice, ramequins au parmesan (MALLARMÉ, Dern. mode, 1874, p. 820). Il existe de nombreuses formules de ramequins, suivant les temps et suivant les lieux. Elles se ramènent toutes plus ou moins, aujourd'hui, à celle d'une tartelette garnie de crème au fromage râpé et fortement poivré, ou à celle, toute voisine, d'une pâte à choux fromagée (Ac. Gastr. 1962).
B. P. méton. Petit récipient en porcelaine ou en verre où l'on cuit directement de la crème fromagée, et, p. ext., que l'on utilise pour cuire, au four ou au bain-marie, des œufs et toutes préparations, crèmes ou entremets. 2 saladiers; 2 soupières; 24 ramequins à crème; 24 tasses mixtes (MATHIOT, Éduc. mén., 1957, p. 84). Soufflé glacé à la confiture (...) on peut réaliser cette recette en petits soufflés individuels moulés dans des ramequins (Cl. MIGNIÈRES, Les Bons desserts, 1980, p. 202).
Prononc. et Orth.: [ʀamkɛ̃]. Att. ds Ac. dep. 1694. Étymol. et Hist. 1. 1656 «
petit gâteau au fromage » (QUINAULT, L'Amant indiscret, I, 3, p. 7); 2. 1957 «
petit récipient utilisé pour la cuisson au four ou au bain-marie » (MATHIOT,
loc. cit.). Empr. au néerl. rammeken, att. au sens 1 (FEW t. 16, p. 657b;
VALKH., p. 210). Bbg. BOULAN 1934, p. 151, 173. DUPIRE (N.). De qq. mots fr.
d'orig. néerl. R. du Nord. 1934, t. 20, p. 104.

So agreeing with the rough chronology and with a Dutch origin.

The French Wikipedia entry says without supporting citation « Le ramequin tire
son nom du mot néerlandais rammeken (diminutif de « ram », cf. l'allemand Rahm
« crème »), qui désignait une petite pâtisserie chaude à base de fromage… »

The corresponding Dutch word for cream is ‘room,’ and I can’t find anything
relevant in the Dutch dictionaries here: https://gtb.ivdnt.org/search/

So, yes, as usual the OED’s assessment is most convincing; “dubious etymology.”

[J. J. Lodder]

[...] It seems to me to be a strange word, and it remains that way
How did the ramekin get its name?
The term is derived from the French ramequin, a cheese- or
meat-based dish baked in a small mould. The French term is in turn
derived from early modern Dutch rammeken, which translated to
'toast' or 'roasted minced meat', itself apparently from ram
'battering ram' + -kin 'diminutive', but it is unclear why.

ramekin (?ræm?k?n). Forms: 8 ramme(l)kin, 8? ramequin, 9 ramakin,
-aquin; 9? ramekin. [ad. F. ramequin (1690) of dub. etym. Cf. obs. Flem.
rammeken toasted bread (Kilian).] a. A small quantity of cheese, with
bread-crumbs, eggs, etc.,

[snip more dictionary wisdom]

So agreeing with the rough chronology and with a Dutch origin.

Origin perhaps, but unknown with this meaning in modern Dutch.
'Ram' with other meanings, like a battering ram,
and the males of certain species, still exists and is well known.
Also 'rammen' as verb, also with various meanings, both lit. and fig.

Jan

[Rich Ulrich]

[...] It seems to me to be a strange word, and it remains that way
How did the ramekin get its name?
The term is derived from the French ramequin, a cheese- or
meat-based dish baked in a small mould. The French term is in turn
derived from early modern Dutch rammeken, which translated to
'toast' or 'roasted minced meat', itself apparently from ram
'battering ram' + -kin 'diminutive', but it is unclear why.

ramekin (?ræm?k?n). Forms: 8 ramme(l)kin, 8­ ramequin, 9 ramakin, -aquin; 9­ ramekin.
[ad. F. ramequin (1690) of dub. etym. Cf. obs. Flem. rammeken toasted bread (Kilian).]
a. A small quantity of cheese, with bread-crumbs, eggs, etc., usually baked and served in a special mould. Chiefly pl.
1706 Phillips, Ramequin (Fr. in Cookery), toasted Cheese and Bread, a Toast and Cheese. Ramequins are also small slices of Bread-crum cover’d with a Farce made of pounded Cheese, Eggs and other Ingredients bak’d in a Pie-pan.
1754 Connoisseur No. 19 Toasted cheese is already buried in rammelkins.
1819 H. Busk Banquet ii. 647 Your ramekins too rich..Your fricassee too fat.
1864 A. B. Kirwan Host & Guest 198 At large dinners in London, cheese is oftenest eaten in the form of ramequins, or grated Parmesan, and other preparations.
1879 B’ham Weekly Post 8 Feb. 1/4 We had hot cheese, like ramakins.
attrib.
1894 Westm. Gaz. 2 June 8/2 Butter some small ramekin moulds.
1894 C. H. Senn Pract. Gastron. 551 Fill the mixture in little French china ramaquin cases.
b. A dish in which ramekins or other portions of food are baked and served.
1895 in Funk’s Stand. Dict.
1946 Farmhouse Fare 19 Flake fish... Mix well and pile into buttered ramekins.
1957 Housewife Sept. 89/2 Scandinavian saucepan in oven-proof pottery. There is a ramekin..in the same design.
1974 M. Babson Stalking Lamb xviii. 129 Sybilla was standing beside the oven, having just transferred the ramekins into it.
1976 Field 18 Nov. 1028 (Advt.), These superb oven proof ramekins each depict a
different game bird of Great Britain.
RAMEQUIN, subst. masc.
A. ART CULIN. Rôtie ou petite pâtisserie chaude à base de fromage. Salade impératrice, ramequins au parmesan (MALLARMÉ, Dern. mode, 1874, p. 820). Il existe de nombreuses formules de ramequins, suivant les temps et suivant les lieux. Elles se ramènent toutes plus ou moins, aujourd'hui, à celle d'une tartelette garnie de crème

au fromage râpé et fortement poivré, ou à celle, toute voisine, d'une pâte à choux fromagée (Ac. Gastr. 1962).

B. P. méton. Petit récipient en porcelaine ou en verre où l'on cuit directement de la crème fromagée, et, p. ext., que l'on utilise pour cuire, au four ou au bain-marie, des œufs et toutes préparations, crèmes ou entremets. 2 saladiers; 2 soupières; 24 ramequins à crème; 24 tasses mixtes (MATHIOT, Éduc. mén., 1957, p. 84).

Soufflé glacé à la confiture (...) on peut réaliser cette recette en petits soufflés individuels moulés dans des ramequins (Cl. MIGNIÈRES, Les Bons desserts, 1980, p. 202).

Prononc. et Orth.: [?amk??]. Att. ds Ac. dep. 1694. Étymol. et Hist. 1. 1656 «
petit gâteau au fromage » (QUINAULT, L'Amant indiscret, I, 3, p. 7); 2. 1957 «
petit récipient utilisé pour la cuisson au four ou au bain-marie » (MATHIOT,
loc. cit.). Empr. au néerl. rammeken, att. au sens 1 (FEW t. 16, p. 657b;
VALKH., p. 210). Bbg. BOULAN 1934, p. 151, 173. DUPIRE (N.). De qq. mots fr.
d'orig. néerl. R. du Nord. 1934, t. 20, p. 104.
So agreeing with the rough chronology and with a Dutch origin.
The French Wikipedia entry says without supporting citation « Le ramequin tire
son nom du mot néerlandais rammeken (diminutif de « ram », cf. l'allemand Rahm
« crème »), qui désignait une petite pâtisserie chaude à base de fromage… »
The corresponding Dutch word for cream is ‘room,’ and I can’t find anything
relevant in the Dutch dictionaries here: https://gtb.ivdnt.org/search/
So, yes, as usual the OED’s assessment is most convincing; “dubious etymology.”

Thanks. The transition from food to dish seems documented, but the
origin for the food is the puzzle.

I find it interesting that the first OED2 citation is about the food,
and includes "Chiefly pl.".

a. A small quantity of cheese, with bread-crumbs, eggs, etc.,
usually baked and served in a special mould. Chiefly pl.

The early citations seem to be about the particular food rather
than the oven-ware, "a special mould". That is a phrase that
makes me wonder if the etymology originated with people
stuffing ('ramming') stuff into some particular shaped molds.

The post-WW II usages in cookbooks seem to speak to the
physical dish, not its contents -- we no longer eat ramekins.

I've been saying and thinking "oven-ware" but I don't know when
ovens replaced open fireplaces.

[Snidely]

Rich Ulrich speculated:

[sheep cheese and battering omitted]

Post by Rich Ulrich
I've been saying and thinking "oven-ware" but I don't know when
ovens replaced open fireplaces.

Well, ovens are quite old, as in millenia, but were generally outdoors
for most of their history. Beehive ovens of some sort of brick seem to
have been the most common. Whether they were developed for food or
for material processing (pottery, metal work) is currently opaque to
me. By colonial American times, if not earlier, fireplaces might have
a brick oven built into one side.

One pot meals seem to also have been common in cA times; one of the PBS
cooking shows was about cooking in the Olde Thirteen, and I caught at
least one episode. Maybe I can find a reference in my dust trail.

/dps

[Rich Ulrich]

Post by Snidely
[sheep cheese and battering omitted]

Post by Rich Ulrich
I've been saying and thinking "oven-ware" but I don't know when
ovens replaced open fireplaces.

Well, ovens are quite old, as in millenia, but were generally outdoors
for most of their history. Beehive ovens of some sort of brick seem to
have been the most common. Whether they were developed for food or
for material processing (pottery, metal work) is currently opaque to
me. By colonial American times, if not earlier, fireplaces might have
a brick oven built into one side.

Thanks. A brick oven built into the side of a fireplace is a nice
precedent that I was not aware of.

Eventually, I turned to Wikipedia on "ovens" and it gives a nice
overview, especially of early uses for baking pottery and smelting
ores. Cooking seems to have come later, but I assume that tiny
ovens for cooking never left large artifacts.

Modern ovens in kitchens seem to have developed after about 1700 -
and 1706 was the earliest OED citation for ramekin.

Late in that century, Ben Franklin was famous as an inventor of
the Franklin stove.

Cooking in a large cauldron in the fireplace was mentioned. I imagine
cauldrons as being cast-iron -- I also don't know when iron became
cheap enough for that sort of application to be widespread.

Post by Snidely
One pot meals seem to also have been common in cA times; one of the PBS
cooking shows was about cooking in the Olde Thirteen, and I caught at
least one episode. Maybe I can find a reference in my dust trail.

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Rich Ulrich

Post by Snidely
[sheep cheese and battering omitted]

Post by Rich Ulrich
I've been saying and thinking "oven-ware" but I don't know when
ovens replaced open fireplaces.

Well, ovens are quite old, as in millenia, but were generally outdoors
for most of their history. Beehive ovens of some sort of brick seem to
have been the most common. Whether they were developed for food or
for material processing (pottery, metal work) is currently opaque to
me. By colonial American times, if not earlier, fireplaces might have
a brick oven built into one side.

Thanks. A brick oven built into the side of a fireplace is a nice
precedent that I was not aware of.

I think that arrangement pre-dated the use of brick[1]. I've seen such
arrangements in castles here in the UK.

[1] The use of brick in Europe the last millennia, neglecting
Mesopotamia and other such places.

[Steve Hayes]

Post by Snidely

Post by Rich Ulrich
I've been saying and thinking "oven-ware" but I don't know when
ovens replaced open fireplaces.

Well, ovens are quite old, as in millenia, but were generally outdoors
for most of their history. Beehive ovens of some sort of brick seem to
have been the most common. Whether they were developed for food or
for material processing (pottery, metal work) is currently opaque to
me. By colonial American times, if not earlier, fireplaces might have
a brick oven built into one side.

Isn't the AmE term for a cooking pot a "Dutch oven"?

[Snidely]

Watch this space, where Steve Hayes advised that...

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Snidely

Post by Rich Ulrich
I've been saying and thinking "oven-ware" but I don't know when
ovens replaced open fireplaces.

Well, ovens are quite old, as in millenia, but were generally outdoors
for most of their history. Beehive ovens of some sort of brick seem to
have been the most common. Whether they were developed for food or
for material processing (pottery, metal work) is currently opaque to
me. By colonial American times, if not earlier, fireplaces might have
a brick oven built into one side.

Isn't the AmE term for a cooking pot a "Dutch oven"?

Only for a particular type, which is often set directly in the coals,
and can be expected to be of cast iron. Cooking pots in general are
cooking pots, and include sauce pans and soup kettles. Whether
casserole dishes are cooking pots is a grey area to me, although they
are ovenware and often potlike. Crock pots are between ovenware and
cooking pots, and live in their own heating element.

/dps

[Aidan Kehoe]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Snidely

Post by Rich Ulrich
I've been saying and thinking "oven-ware" but I don't know when
ovens replaced open fireplaces.

Well, ovens are quite old, as in millenia, but were generally outdoors
for most of their history. Beehive ovens of some sort of brick seem to
have been the most common. Whether they were developed for food or
for material processing (pottery, metal work) is currently opaque to
me. By colonial American times, if not earlier, fireplaces might have
a brick oven built into one side.

Isn't the AmE term for a cooking pot a "Dutch oven"?

We watch an Englishman on Youtube fairly regularly, a channel called Kent
Survival, in which a cheerful man stays overnight in rural England in, e.g.
tents made out of cardboard or bubble wrap, with the expected drenching and
mild misery. Neither of us have any interest in the outdoors but it’s very
soothing.

He appears to be quite a good cook, and he calls his pot that he uses to bake
bread among other things a “Dutch oven.” This was where I learned the term; the
OED2 doesn’t mark this meaning as US when I check it today.

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by Snidely
[sheep cheese and battering omitted]

Post by Rich Ulrich
I've been saying and thinking "oven-ware" but I don't know when
ovens replaced open fireplaces.

Well, ovens are quite old, as in millenia, but were generally outdoors
for most of their history. Beehive ovens of some sort of brick seem to
have been the most common. Whether they were developed for food or
for material processing (pottery, metal work) is currently opaque to
me. By colonial American times, if not earlier, fireplaces might have
a brick oven built into one side.

perhaps, in all those deserts, but in those parts they certainly didn't
want to waste all that heat outdoors while shivering inside,

Jan

[jerryfriedman]

Post by Rich Ulrich
Over the years, I've run across the word 'ramekin' in mentions
of kitchen-ware - not often, but a few times. Last week I saw
it again, and this time I bothered to look it up. (modern, urban
paranormal sci-fi, a witch gathering supplies.)
I have one! No, I have two!

..

You can use them to make baked eggs, or for people who
like odd words, shirred eggs. I don't find the
results exciting, at least the time I tried it, but
the method has the advantage of not requiring
attention. Janet will know more.

--
Jerry Friedman

--

[Aidan Kehoe]

You can use [ramekins] to make baked eggs, or for people who
like odd words, shirred eggs.

“To poach (eggs) in cream instead of water” says the OED. What a fine idea,
another opportunity to get value out of my atorvastatin. (Because, yes,
saturated fats are in general delicious.)

I don't find the results exciting, at least the time I tried it, but the
method has the advantage of not requiring attention. Janet will know more.

[jerryfriedman]

Post by Aidan Kehoe

You can use [ramekins] to make baked eggs, or for people who
like odd words, shirred eggs.

“To poach (eggs) in cream instead of water” says the OED.

And in the oven instead of on the stove, as far as I
know.

Post by Aidan Kehoe
What a fine idea,
another opportunity to get value out of my atorvastatin. (Because, yes,
saturated fats are in general delicious.)

..

They don't do anything for my deliciousness sensors,
but I seem to be in the minority.

--
Jerry Friedman

--

[Peter Moylan]

Over the years, I've run across the word 'ramekin' in mentions of
kitchen-ware - not often, but a few times. Last week I saw it
again, and this time I bothered to look it up. (modern, urban
paranormal sci-fi, a witch gathering supplies.)
I have one! No, I have two!

..
You can use them to make baked eggs, or for people who like odd
words, shirred eggs. I don't find the results exciting, at least the
time I tried it, but the method has the advantage of not requiring
attention. Janet will know more.

My main use of ramekins, many years ago, was when I was preparing food
for twin babies. One of their regular dishes was pâté, which I cooked in
the oven in ramekins.

I didn't much like doing it, because chopping the chicken liver and
getting the impurities out was a tedious job. But the children did
appreciate the result.

[Janet]

In article <b02bb472e5fc9e30c3b24348e4351001
@www.novabbs.com>, ***@gmail.com says...

Post by jerryfriedman

Post by Rich Ulrich
Over the years, I've run across the word 'ramekin' in mentions
of kitchen-ware - not often, but a few times. Last week I saw
it again, and this time I bothered to look it up. (modern, urban
paranormal sci-fi, a witch gathering supplies.)
I have one! No, I have two!

..
You can use them to make baked eggs, or for people who
like odd words, shirred eggs. I don't find the
results exciting, at least the time I tried it, but
the method has the advantage of not requiring
attention. Janet will know more.

I'd call it eggs en cocotte. Made in a ramekin.

I've only ever heard Americans use the term shirred
eggs. Wiki claims it was taken from the kind if dish
used, a shirrer, and I've never heard that term used here
either.

Janet.

[Adam Funk]

Post by Janet
In article <b02bb472e5fc9e30c3b24348e4351001
@www.novabbs.com>, ***@gmail.com says...

Post by jerryfriedman

Post by Rich Ulrich
Over the years, I've run across the word 'ramekin' in mentions
of kitchen-ware - not often, but a few times. Last week I saw
it again, and this time I bothered to look it up. (modern, urban
paranormal sci-fi, a witch gathering supplies.)
I have one! No, I have two!

..
You can use them to make baked eggs, or for people who
like odd words, shirred eggs. I don't find the
results exciting, at least the time I tried it, but
the method has the advantage of not requiring
attention. Janet will know more.

I'd call it eggs en cocotte. Made in a ramekin.
I've only ever heard Americans use the term shirred
eggs. Wiki claims it was taken from the kind if dish
used, a shirrer, and I've never heard that term used here
either.

I've never heard anyone use "shirred eggs" except in this kind of
"hey, did you know there's an unusual term for 'baked eggs'?!" way.

[Adam Funk]

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Janet
I've only ever heard Americans use the term shirred
eggs. Wiki claims it was taken from the kind if dish
used, a shirrer, and I've never heard that term used here
either.

I've never heard anyone use "shirred eggs" except in this kind of
"hey, did you know there's an unusual term for 'baked eggs'?!" way.

I recently came across "shirring" as a term of art in sewing: using
elastic thread on the bobbin (with normal thread on top) to make
several parallel stitches that gather up the fabric when released.

<https://www.tillyandthebuttons.com/2023/04/how-to-sew-shirring.html>

[Janet]

In article <***@news.ducksburg.com>, a24061
@ducksburg.com says...

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Janet
I've only ever heard Americans use the term shirred
eggs. Wiki claims it was taken from the kind if dish
used, a shirrer, and I've never heard that term used here
either.

I've never heard anyone use "shirred eggs" except in this kind of
"hey, did you know there's an unusual term for 'baked eggs'?!" way.

I recently came across "shirring" as a term of art in sewing: using
elastic thread on the bobbin (with normal thread on top) to make
several parallel stitches that gather up the fabric when released.
<https://www.tillyandthebuttons.com/2023/04/how-to-sew-shirring.html>

Back in the 1950's my mother made matching dresses for me
and my sister, shirred and hand-smocked, "Peter Pan "
collar. I hated mine and wore it tucked inside my
knickers.

Similar to this

<https://www.sovintagepatterns.com/1950s-Vintage-
ADORABLE-Girls-SMOCKED-Dress-with-Scalloped-Collar-Womans-
Day-Pattern-5028-Sweet-Smocking-Chest-26-Sewing-Pattern_p_
12464.html>

Janet.

[Adam Funk]

Post by Rich Ulrich
I inherited these ramekins, so to speak, when they were left in
the oven of the apartment I rented in 1969. (The landlord told
me to keep them; the prior tenant had died, and someone
unrelated had cleared the apartment. Except for two ramekins
in the oven and a potted plant in the living room. The plant
soon died.)

...

Post by Rich Ulrich
It seems to me to be a strange word, and it remains that way
How did the ramekin get its name?
The term is derived from the French ramequin, a cheese- or
meat-based dish baked in a small mould. The French term is in turn
derived from early modern Dutch rammeken, which translated to
'toast' or 'roasted minced meat', itself apparently from ram
'battering ram' + -kin 'diminutive', but it is unclear why.

I remember discussing them earlier this year. Checking my old posts, I
find that in May, lar3ryca posted a possible etymology of Welsh

Post by Rich Ulrich
According to Etymonline;
Welsh rabbit, "dish of toast and cheese" is from 1724, also perverted by
folk-etymology as Welsh rarebit (1785). The name is often said to be
from a joke that the Welsh are too poor to afford wild rabbit, but the
existence of Scotch rabbit (1743) and English rabbit (1747) suggests
otherwise. Perhaps a corruption of ramekin, a similar dish, taken for
mock-Welsh -kin suffix.

I was surprised to learn that the name of the vessel comes from the
foodstuff it was originally used for (the reverse of "terrine").