Discussion:
German pronunciation
Add Reply
Tony Cooper
2021-03-15 15:35:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
This video:
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/

will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.

I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.

I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.

I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.

Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida
Ken Blake
2021-03-15 15:42:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
I say it the same way you do. It's not a surprise to me that some people
say "pro-nownce-ee-ation," but I don't remember ever hearing it.
--
Ken
Stefan Ram
2021-03-15 15:48:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
I say it the same way you do. It's not a surprise to me that some people
say "pro-nownce-ee-ation," but I don't remember ever hearing it.
"Pronounciation" was actually spelled and pronounced this
way ("-noun-") since the 16th century, among other variants
such as "pronunciation," but today it is rarely found.

In dictionaries from 1899, 1911, and 1934, I only find
"pronunciation".

The spelling "pronounciation" today is considered as wrong
by almost everyone, while the pronunciation with [-naʊn-]
occasionally occurs and is rarely considered incorrect,
although [-nʌn-] is certainly standard.
Jerry Friedman
2021-03-15 15:48:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.
Post by Tony Cooper
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
When I was in grad school, a fellow student told me that
mispronunciation is common, which might be true, and that I do it,
which is obviously false. I do type "pronounciation" at time and have
to correct it.
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter T. Daniels
2021-03-15 16:17:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.
Post by Tony Cooper
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
When I was in grad school, a fellow student told me that
mispronunciation is common, which might be true, and that I do it,
which is obviously false. I do type "pronounciation" at time and have
to correct it.
The ou ~ u alternation is standard: abound/abundance, profound/profundity,
etc. It's part of the pattern that Chomsky & Halle call "trisyllabic laxing," along
with divine/divinity, sane/sanity, serene/serenity, etc.
Jerry Friedman
2021-03-15 16:37:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
[pronunciation]
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
When I was in grad school, a fellow student told me that
mispronunciation is common, which might be true, and that I do it,
which is obviously false. I do type "pronounciation" at time
s
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
and have to correct it.
The ou ~ u alternation is standard: abound/abundance, profound/profundity,
etc.
A native example is south/southerly, southern (formerly sutherne), according
to Wikipedia.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
It's part of the pattern that Chomsky & Halle call "trisyllabic laxing," along
with divine/divinity, sane/sanity, serene/serenity, etc.
Myopic/myopia, dystonic/dystonia... wait a second.
--
Jerry Friedman
Blow the wind southerly, southerly, southerly...
Ross Clark
2021-03-16 10:33:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.
Post by Tony Cooper
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
When I was in grad school, a fellow student told me that
mispronunciation is common, which might be true, and that I do it,
which is obviously false. I do type "pronounciation" at time and have
to correct it.
The ou ~ u alternation is standard: abound/abundance, profound/profundity,
etc. It's part of the pattern that Chomsky & Halle call "trisyllabic laxing," along
with divine/divinity, sane/sanity, serene/serenity, etc.
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
for the student.
s***@my-deja.com
2021-03-16 10:52:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ross Clark
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
for the student.
What about the main point of the video - that German brand names should
be pronounced as in German?

Lidl to rhyme with middle or with needle?

That idea would demolish all the English language names of many Italian cities
A good idea?
Kerr-Mudd,John
2021-03-16 11:07:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by Ross Clark
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually
organized in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say
"pronounciation". In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are
left as an exercise for the student.
What about the main point of the video - that German brand names
should be pronounced as in German?
Lidl to rhyme with middle or with needle?
or LieDl?
Maybe they'll have a cooking special; one could get a Ladle from Lidl.

All Die or Al Dae?
Post by s***@my-deja.com
That idea would demolish all the English language names of many Italian cities
A good idea?
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2021-03-16 12:41:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by Ross Clark
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
for the student.
What about the main point of the video - that German brand names should
be pronounced as in German?
Lidl to rhyme with middle or with needle?
That idea would demolish all the English language names of many Italian cities
A good idea?
Leghorn seems to have gone, but all the others I can think of seem to
be alive and well.

French has never had any truck with that idea. Now that we're all
supposed to say Beijing it's still Pékin in French.
--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years
J. J. Lodder
2021-03-16 14:33:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by Ross Clark
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
for the student.
What about the main point of the video - that German brand names should
be pronounced as in German?
Lidl to rhyme with middle or with needle?
That idea would demolish all the English language names of many Italian cities
A good idea?
Leghorn seems to have gone,
But the chickens are still there.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
but all the others I can think of seem to be alive and well.
French has never had any truck with that idea. Now that we're all
supposed to say Beijing it's still Pékin in French.
You can't blame them.
It is not their fault that the Chinese do it all wrong,

Jan
Kerr-Mudd,John
2021-03-16 17:33:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by Ross Clark
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually
organized in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say
"pronounciation". In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions
are left as an exercise for the student.
What about the main point of the video - that German brand names
should be pronounced as in German?
Lidl to rhyme with middle or with needle?
That idea would demolish all the English language names of many Italian cities
A good idea?
Leghorn seems to have gone,
But the chickens are still there.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
but all the others I can think of seem to be alive and well.
French has never had any truck with that idea. Now that we're all
supposed to say Beijing it's still Pékin in French.
That's a duck, not a chicken!
Post by J. J. Lodder
You can't blame them.
It is not their fault that the Chinese do it all wrong,
Can't even write proper.
Post by J. J. Lodder
Jan
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Quinn C
2021-03-16 22:21:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Leghorn seems to have gone,
But the chickens are still there.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
but all the others I can think of seem to be alive and well.
French has never had any truck with that idea. Now that we're all
supposed to say Beijing it's still P誩n in French.
That's a duck, not a chicken!
I think you're seeking quarrel!

In your post, I see the character 誩 (quarrel) between the P and the n.
--
... if you're going around with a red pen and apostrophe, you're
... trying to prove your superiority over people. But if you're
going around trying to use people's correct pronouns, ... you're
trying to connect with them and ... respect them.
-- Gretchen McCulloch on Factually!
Ross Clark
2021-03-16 22:45:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Leghorn seems to have gone,
But the chickens are still there.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
but all the others I can think of seem to be alive and well.
French has never had any truck with that idea. Now that we're all
supposed to say Beijing it's still P誩n in French.
That's a duck, not a chicken!
I think you're seeking quarrel!
In your post, I see the character 誩 (quarrel) between the P and the n.
That's weird. I see it in your copy of AC-B, but not in his original or
J.J.'s or K-M's copies, where expected <éki> appears. I thought of some
rogue romaji > kanji converter, but can't find that one in my kanji
dictionary.
Quinn C
2021-03-16 23:07:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Quinn C
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Leghorn seems to have gone,
But the chickens are still there.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
but all the others I can think of seem to be alive and well.
French has never had any truck with that idea. Now that we're all
supposed to say Beijing it's still P誩n in French.
That's a duck, not a chicken!
I think you're seeking quarrel!
In your post, I see the character 誩 (quarrel) between the P and the n.
That's weird. I see it in your copy of AC-B, but not in his original or
J.J.'s or K-M's copies, where expected <éki> appears. I thought of some
rogue romaji > kanji converter, but can't find that one in my kanji
dictionary.
One of the oldest Usenet issue there is: K-M doesn't declare character
set, so we all have to guess. I instruct my newsreader to interpret it
as Unicode in that case, as best it can. When I see that that failed, I
can manually override the guessing game, but I usually don't bother. The
problem is at the sending end, after all.

I did use Xnews in my early days in this group, but as a regular user of
German groups, I found it usable only in tandem with the KorrNews local
proxy, which adds the character set declaration and does some
rudimentary conversion of incoming Unicode.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2021-03-16 13:47:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by Ross Clark
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
for the student.
What about the main point of the video - that German brand names should
be pronounced as in German?
Lidl to rhyme with middle or with needle?
In the UK there are two separate Lidl companies, Lidl GB and Lidl NI.
According to the companies' adverts on YouTube, Lidl GB rhymes Lidl with
middle but Lidl NI rhymes it with needle.
Post by s***@my-deja.com
That idea would demolish all the English language names of many Italian cities
A good idea?
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
J. J. Lodder
2021-03-16 14:33:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by Ross Clark
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
for the student.
What about the main point of the video - that German brand names should
be pronounced as in German?
Lidl to rhyme with middle or with needle?
That idea would demolish all the English language names of many Italian cities
A good idea?
Yes I think, with moderation,
and if you take over a hundred years for it.
Dutch has done it wrt English.
Places like Nieuwkasteel and Haarwijk have been forgotten,
but Londen instead of London still exists,

Jan

PS And for our American friends: Zandhoek has gone too.
Quinn C
2021-03-16 16:18:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by s***@my-deja.com
What about the main point of the video - that German brand names should
be pronounced as in German?
Lidl to rhyme with middle or with needle?
That idea would demolish all the English language names of many Italian cities
The latter can and I think should be regarded as a separate question. If
a separate English name exists, it has its own pronunciation. That will
rarely apply to brand names, though.

In the other case, where you use the foreign name as is, in the exact
spelling, then my strong preference is that the pronunciation should be
based on the original pronunciation.

Mimicking sounds that don't exist in your native language should be
optional, and avoided if it impairs recognition. But reading
pronunciations should really be avoided. So not Eye-key-a, because
Ee-kay-ya is quite English enough, and closer to the Swedish original.

As a general rule - if a company uses a different pronunciation itself,
that's of course admissible. <https://youtu.be/ZFVAVY37nI4>, for how
IKEA promotes itself to British and American customers.

One thing that irritated me in the camera name video is that the speaker
described the German "long a" ([a:]) as in Agfa as "short". I think he
just said that to dissuade English speakers from certain English
pronunciations, mixing different meanings of "long" in the process - but
then, [eI] is very unlikely in this case. It's also possible he thinks
Agfa should be said with an actual short a ([a]) in German. I couldn't
quite figure it out, and I've heard both variants in German.
--
I found the Forshan religion restful. I found the Forshan
religious war less so.
-- J. Scalzi, Redshirts
Tony Cooper
2021-03-16 18:54:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 12:18:33 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by s***@my-deja.com
What about the main point of the video - that German brand names should
be pronounced as in German?
Lidl to rhyme with middle or with needle?
That idea would demolish all the English language names of many Italian cities
The latter can and I think should be regarded as a separate question. If
a separate English name exists, it has its own pronunciation. That will
rarely apply to brand names, though.
In the other case, where you use the foreign name as is, in the exact
spelling, then my strong preference is that the pronunciation should be
based on the original pronunciation.
Mimicking sounds that don't exist in your native language should be
optional, and avoided if it impairs recognition. But reading
pronunciations should really be avoided. So not Eye-key-a, because
Ee-kay-ya is quite English enough, and closer to the Swedish original.
As a general rule - if a company uses a different pronunciation itself,
that's of course admissible. <https://youtu.be/ZFVAVY37nI4>, for how
IKEA promotes itself to British and American customers.
The camera name video went through a long list of camera and lens
makers that would be unfamiliar to most people. Even as a person who
is very much into photography, and follows photography news, many of
those names were unfamiliar to me.

Ikea, though, would be a company name with a high degree of name
recognition in any group.

As a "drifting a bit" aside, the thing that irritates me is when
people spell "lens" as "lense". Not as a typo, but as a form of
affectation.
Post by Quinn C
One thing that irritated me in the camera name video is that the speaker
described the German "long a" ([a:]) as in Agfa as "short". I think he
just said that to dissuade English speakers from certain English
pronunciations, mixing different meanings of "long" in the process - but
then, [eI] is very unlikely in this case. It's also possible he thinks
Agfa should be said with an actual short a ([a]) in German. I couldn't
quite figure it out, and I've heard both variants in German.
--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida
Jerry Friedman
2021-03-16 19:04:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tuesday, March 16, 2021 at 12:54:16 PM UTC-6, Tony Cooper wrote:
...
Post by Tony Cooper
As a "drifting a bit" aside, the thing that irritates me is when
people spell "lens" as "lense". Not as a typo, but as a form of
affectation.
...

Or just as a mistake.
--
Jerry Friedman
Tony Cooper
2021-03-16 19:22:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 12:04:31 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by Tony Cooper
As a "drifting a bit" aside, the thing that irritates me is when
people spell "lens" as "lense". Not as a typo, but as a form of
affectation.
...
Or just as a mistake.
No, there are certain people in the photography forums that
consistantly use that spelling, are called on it, and continue to use
it.

Note that, here: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lense

is says that

"Usage notes
Lense is accepted as an alternative spelling by Webster's Third New
International Dictionary, but proscribed as a misspelling by Garner's
Modern American Usage, Paul Brians’ Common Errors in English Usage,
Robert Hartwell Fiske's Dictionary of Unendurable English and others."
--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2021-03-16 20:45:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Note that, here: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lense
is says that
"Usage notes
Lense is accepted as an alternative spelling by Webster's Third New
International Dictionary, but proscribed as a misspelling by Garner's
Modern American Usage, Paul Brians’ Common Errors in English Usage,
Robert Hartwell Fiske's Dictionary of Unendurable English and others."
In other words, the folks who tell you what people _do_ use -- or rather,
did use 60 years ago -- say it's in use, and the folks who like to think they
have a right or duty to tell you what you _should_ do say otherwise.

They don't, however, get to decide.
Quinn C
2021-03-16 21:17:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 12:04:31 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by Tony Cooper
As a "drifting a bit" aside, the thing that irritates me is when
people spell "lens" as "lense". Not as a typo, but as a form of
affectation.
...
Or just as a mistake.
No, there are certain people in the photography forums that
consistantly use that spelling, are called on it, and continue to use
it.
That makes no sens!

A reference to German "Linse"? But the usual meaning of "lens" in
photography is "Objektiv" in German (the elements are Linsen).
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Ross Clark
2021-03-16 22:54:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 12:04:31 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by Tony Cooper
As a "drifting a bit" aside, the thing that irritates me is when
people spell "lens" as "lense". Not as a typo, but as a form of
affectation.
...
Or just as a mistake.
No, there are certain people in the photography forums that
consistantly use that spelling, are called on it, and continue to use
it.
That makes no sens!
A reference to German "Linse"? But the usual meaning of "lens" in
photography is "Objektiv" in German (the elements are Linsen).
It actually makes some sense as an English spelling (cf. cleanse),
though "lenze" would be better (cf. bronze). The -ns ending usually
signals a morpheme boundary (pens, cleans).
Adam Funk
2021-03-16 11:10:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.
Post by Tony Cooper
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
When I was in grad school, a fellow student told me that
mispronunciation is common, which might be true, and that I do it,
which is obviously false. I do type "pronounciation" at time and have
to correct it.
The ou ~ u alternation is standard: abound/abundance, profound/profundity,
etc. It's part of the pattern that Chomsky & Halle call "trisyllabic laxing," along
with divine/divinity, sane/sanity, serene/serenity, etc.
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
for the student.
Hypercorrection or something similar?
--
When Chayefsky created Howard Beale, could he have imagined
Jerry Springer, Howard Stern, and the World Wrestling
Federation? ---Roger Ebert
Ross Clark
2021-03-16 23:02:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.
Post by Tony Cooper
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
When I was in grad school, a fellow student told me that
mispronunciation is common, which might be true, and that I do it,
which is obviously false. I do type "pronounciation" at time and have
to correct it.
The ou ~ u alternation is standard: abound/abundance, profound/profundity,
etc. It's part of the pattern that Chomsky & Halle call "trisyllabic laxing," along
with divine/divinity, sane/sanity, serene/serenity, etc.
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
for the student.
Hypercorrection or something similar?
Analogical contamination or something like that. People learn the words
separately; they're linked by meaning, but not derived from a single
underlying form as C&H would have it. The ou > u change is just an
arbitrary oddity which is easily forgotten.
Jerry Friedman
2021-03-16 14:11:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.
Post by Tony Cooper
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
When I was in grad school, a fellow student told me that
mispronunciation is common, which might be true, and that I do it,
which is obviously false. I do type "pronounciation" at time and have
to correct it.
The ou ~ u alternation is standard: abound/abundance, profound/profundity,
etc. It's part of the pattern that Chomsky & Halle call "trisyllabic laxing," along
with divine/divinity, sane/sanity, serene/serenity, etc.
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
for the student.
I hope C&H said it was just a tendency. After all, they knew "invitational"
doesn't rhyme with "national", "obesity" doesn't have the same stressed
vowel as "serenity", etc., etc.
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter T. Daniels
2021-03-16 16:12:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.
Post by Tony Cooper
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
When I was in grad school, a fellow student told me that
mispronunciation is common, which might be true, and that I do it,
which is obviously false. I do type "pronounciation" at time and have
to correct it.
The ou ~ u alternation is standard: abound/abundance, profound/profundity,
etc. It's part of the pattern that Chomsky & Halle call "trisyllabic laxing," along
with divine/divinity, sane/sanity, serene/serenity, etc.
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
for the student.
I hope C&H said it was just a tendency. After all, they knew "invitational"
doesn't rhyme with "national", "obesity" doesn't have the same stressed
vowel as "serenity", etc., etc.
invite/invitation (-ational is two suffixes, "nation" has no synchronic suffix)

It wouldn't be surprising to hear "obessity" from someone who didn't
know "obesity."

Wijk and other sources have several words of that sort where AmE and
BrE differ.
Jerry Friedman
2021-03-16 16:50:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.
Post by Tony Cooper
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
When I was in grad school, a fellow student told me that
mispronunciation is common, which might be true, and that I do it,
which is obviously false. I do type "pronounciation" at time and have
to correct it.
The ou ~ u alternation is standard: abound/abundance, profound/profundity,
etc. It's part of the pattern that Chomsky & Halle call "trisyllabic laxing," along
with divine/divinity, sane/sanity, serene/serenity, etc.
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
for the student.
I hope C&H said it was just a tendency. After all, they knew "invitational"
doesn't rhyme with "national", "obesity" doesn't have the same stressed
vowel as "serenity", etc., etc.
invite/invitation (-ational is two suffixes, "nation" has no synchronic suffix)
...

Is there a proviso that trisyllabic laxing doesn't apply or doesn't necessarily
apply to synchronic suffixes?
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter T. Daniels
2021-03-16 20:40:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.
Post by Tony Cooper
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
When I was in grad school, a fellow student told me that
mispronunciation is common, which might be true, and that I do it,
which is obviously false. I do type "pronounciation" at time and have
to correct it.
The ou ~ u alternation is standard: abound/abundance, profound/profundity,
etc. It's part of the pattern that Chomsky & Halle call "trisyllabic laxing," along
with divine/divinity, sane/sanity, serene/serenity, etc.
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
for the student.
I hope C&H said it was just a tendency. After all, they knew "invitational"
doesn't rhyme with "national", "obesity" doesn't have the same stressed
vowel as "serenity", etc., etc.
invite/invitation (-ational is two suffixes, "nation" has no synchronic suffix)
...
Is there a proviso that trisyllabic laxing doesn't apply or doesn't necessarily
apply to synchronic suffixes?
? You must mean "diachronic." The suffix in "national" that makes the
syllable in question third-from-the end is -al. I don't know whether
"nation" has -tion in it, but I doubt it.

Also you can see from abound/abundance that there don't actually
have to be two syllables after the affected one.

The basic, unstated, assumption of C&H's SPE is that every English-
speaker has Proto-Indo-European in their head, because their rules
recapitulate the historical development of the language -- as, in fact,
it's reflected in the spelling.
Ross Clark
2021-03-16 23:06:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.
Post by Tony Cooper
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
When I was in grad school, a fellow student told me that
mispronunciation is common, which might be true, and that I do it,
which is obviously false. I do type "pronounciation" at time and have
to correct it.
The ou ~ u alternation is standard: abound/abundance, profound/profundity,
etc. It's part of the pattern that Chomsky & Halle call "trisyllabic laxing," along
with divine/divinity, sane/sanity, serene/serenity, etc.
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
for the student.
I hope C&H said it was just a tendency. After all, they knew "invitational"
doesn't rhyme with "national", "obesity" doesn't have the same stressed
vowel as "serenity", etc., etc.
They were far more interested in rules than exceptions. "Tendency" was
not part of their vocabulary -- it smacked of empiricism.
Peter T. Daniels
2021-03-16 16:07:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.
Post by Tony Cooper
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
When I was in grad school, a fellow student told me that
mispronunciation is common, which might be true, and that I do it,
which is obviously false. I do type "pronounciation" at time and have
to correct it.
The ou ~ u alternation is standard: abound/abundance, profound/profundity,
etc. It's part of the pattern that Chomsky & Halle call "trisyllabic laxing," along
with divine/divinity, sane/sanity, serene/serenity, etc.
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
for the student.
Do you often hear aboundance, profoundity, div/ay/nity, s/ey/nity, etc.?
Ross Clark
2021-03-16 23:20:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.
Post by Tony Cooper
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
When I was in grad school, a fellow student told me that
mispronunciation is common, which might be true, and that I do it,
which is obviously false. I do type "pronounciation" at time and have
to correct it.
The ou ~ u alternation is standard: abound/abundance, profound/profundity,
etc. It's part of the pattern that Chomsky & Halle call "trisyllabic laxing," along
with divine/divinity, sane/sanity, serene/serenity, etc.
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
for the student.
Do you often hear aboundance, profoundity, div/ay/nity, s/ey/nity, etc.?
No. As I said to Jerry, people learn these words and their (historical)
base words separately. (Many people who know "abundance" probably don't
even know "abound", or don't relate the two.) Analogical
innovation/re-creation is unsystematic and sporadic. "Profoundity" or
"obsceenity" wouldn't greatly surprise me if I heard them.

Do you often hear "obessity", or does the theory just predict that you
should?
CDB
2021-03-16 13:27:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German
names properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable
by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.
Post by Tony Cooper
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others,
and it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
When I was in grad school, a fellow student told me that
mispronunciation is common, which might be true, and that I do it,
which is obviously false. I do type "pronounciation" at time and
have to correct it.
Interesting that one (FSVO "one") does not hear or see "announciation",
"enounciation" or "denounciation". The verbs are spelled and pronounced
"-ou-"[aw], and I presume that that is the source of the error.
Quinn C
2021-03-16 16:18:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by CDB
Interesting that one (FSVO "one") does not hear or see "announciation",
"enounciation" or "denounciation". The verbs are spelled and pronounced
"-ou-"[aw], and I presume that that is the source of the error.
One has to take into account that each of these is less frequent than
"pronunciation", so it may take a long time to encounter one instance of
a divergent pronunciation.
--
If this guy wants to fight with weapons, I've got it covered
from A to Z. From axe to... zee other axe.
-- Buffy s05e03
Ross Clark
2021-03-16 23:28:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.
Post by Tony Cooper
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
When I was in grad school, a fellow student told me that
mispronunciation is common, which might be true, and that I do it,
which is obviously false.  I do type "pronounciation" at time and have
to correct it.
Interesting that one (FSVO "one") does not hear or see "announciation",
"enounciation" or "denounciation".  The verbs are spelled and pronounced
"-ou-"[aw], and I presume that that is the source of the error.
Certainly it is. But "Annunciation" is no longer related to "announce";
it's the name of a specific Biblical event. "Announce" and "denounce"
also have other nominalized forms available (with -ment). And is there
even a verb "enounce"? One wouldn't expect much analogical pressure in
these cases.
Graham
2021-03-15 17:35:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
I haven't heard that but I have heard Canadians and Americans say
"sowthern" for southern.
CDB
2021-03-16 13:34:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graham
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals
with pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with
German names properly. Only a very few of the items will be
recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation".
I think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others,
and it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
I haven't heard that but I have heard Canadians and Americans say
"sowthern" for southern.
Influenced by the lamented Southam newspaper chain? (The heirs sold out
to Conrad Black.)

They pronounced their name "sowtham" ['***@m].
Ross Clark
2021-03-16 23:33:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by CDB
Post by Graham
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
 will not have much interest to most people here because it deals
with pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with
German names properly.  Only a very few of the items will be
recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though.  At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation".
I think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the  "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others,
and it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
I haven't heard that but I have heard Canadians and Americans say
"sowthern" for southern.
Influenced by the lamented Southam newspaper chain? (The heirs sold out
to Conrad Black.)
I didn't know that. We said "sutham" /ʌ/. Not that I ever met any of
them, but they owned the Vancouver Province, for whom I once worked in
the home-delivery field.

Athel Cornish-Bowden
2021-03-15 17:39:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
More common than one might wish! One also sometimes sees it spelt
"pronounciation"
--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years
Rich Ulrich
2021-03-15 19:19:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 15 Mar 2021 18:39:42 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
More common than one might wish! One also sometimes sees it spelt
"pronounciation"
Yes, too common and I've seen it spelt that way.

Google Ngrams shows the spelling to be very rare (books).
--
Rich Ulrich
Tony Cooper
2021-03-15 19:23:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 15 Mar 2021 15:19:40 -0400, Rich Ulrich
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Mon, 15 Mar 2021 18:39:42 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
More common than one might wish! One also sometimes sees it spelt
"pronounciation"
Yes, too common and I've seen it spelt that way.
Google Ngrams shows the spelling to be very rare (books).
I'll say this once to answer all who noticed it:

I made a typo and spelled pronunciation once incorrectly.
--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2021-03-15 19:27:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 15 Mar 2021 15:19:40 -0400, Rich Ulrich
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Mon, 15 Mar 2021 18:39:42 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
More common than one might wish! One also sometimes sees it spelt
"pronounciation"
Yes, too common and I've seen it spelt that way.
Google Ngrams shows the spelling to be very rare (books).
I made a typo and spelled pronunciation once incorrectly.
Yes, I noticed, but in this group we (most of us) only draw attention
to our own typos, not to other people's.
--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years
Peter T. Daniels
2021-03-15 21:26:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tony Cooper
I made a typo and spelled pronunciation once incorrectly.
Yes, I noticed, but in this group we (most of us) only draw attention
to our own typos, not to other people's.
TC isn't part of that "we." I gave him the opportunity to bitch about
my all-caps response -- but all he did was quote the one line that
had an obvious self-correcting typo and call attention to it.

"Pronounciation" is a natural product of fingers that are accustomed
to touch-typing and access "frequency tables" in the memory.
Peter Moylan
2021-03-15 21:05:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 15 Mar 2021 15:19:40 -0400, Rich Ulrich
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Mon, 15 Mar 2021 18:39:42 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
More common than one might wish! One also sometimes sees it spelt
"pronounciation"
Yes, too common and I've seen it spelt that way.
Google Ngrams shows the spelling to be very rare (books).
I made a typo and spelled pronunciation once incorrectly.
I noticed, but thought it was deliberate.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Lewis
2021-03-15 19:28:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
I hear both, never bothered by either one, but I use the same one you
do.

The one currently bothering me is people who say "wizened" as
"wise-end".
--
There are bad people on both sides
Graham
2021-03-15 22:46:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lewis
I hear both, never bothered by either one, but I use the same one you
do.
The one currently bothering me is people who say "wizened" as
"wise-end".
That's an example of the current fashion of vowel-lengthening.
Another mis-pronunciation is "sh" for "ch".
I've heard "shintz" for "chintz" but the best example, which combines
both "sh" and vowel lengthening was someone on the CBC saying:
"Grinning like a Sheshyre Cat!"
Lewis
2021-03-16 09:43:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
I hear both, never bothered by either one, but I use the same one you
do.
The one currently bothering me is people who say "wizened" as
"wise-end".
That's an example of the current fashion of vowel-lengthening.
Maybe, or maybe it's people thinking it means "wise" and not "old and
wrinkled".
Post by Graham
Another mis-pronunciation is "sh" for "ch".
I've heard "shintz" for "chintz" but the best example, which combines
"Grinning like a Sheshyre Cat!"
Which CBC? Canadian? They might have though they were sounding like
posh Brits?
--
'You make us want what we can't have and what you give us is worth
nothing and what you take is everything and all there is left for
us is the cold hillside, and emptiness, and the laughter of the
elves.'
Graham
2021-03-16 14:37:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
I hear both, never bothered by either one, but I use the same one you
do.
The one currently bothering me is people who say "wizened" as
"wise-end".
That's an example of the current fashion of vowel-lengthening.
Maybe, or maybe it's people thinking it means "wise" and not "old and
wrinkled".
Post by Graham
Another mis-pronunciation is "sh" for "ch".
I've heard "shintz" for "chintz" but the best example, which combines
"Grinning like a Sheshyre Cat!"
Which CBC? Canadian? They might have though they were sounding like
posh Brits?
No Brit, posh or otherwise, would ever pronounce "Cheshire" that way.
Lewis
2021-03-16 15:39:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
I hear both, never bothered by either one, but I use the same one you
do.
The one currently bothering me is people who say "wizened" as
"wise-end".
That's an example of the current fashion of vowel-lengthening.
Maybe, or maybe it's people thinking it means "wise" and not "old and
wrinkled".
Post by Graham
Another mis-pronunciation is "sh" for "ch".
I've heard "shintz" for "chintz" but the best example, which combines
"Grinning like a Sheshyre Cat!"
Which CBC? Canadian? They might have though they were sounding like
posh Brits?
No Brit, posh or otherwise, would ever pronounce "Cheshire" that way.
I didn't say a Brit would. But I have certainly heard a lot of people
mispronounce things because they thought they were sounding British )or
French).

For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".
--
'And I promise you this,' he [Carrot] shouted, 'if we succeed, no-one
will remember. And if we fail, no one will forget!'
Jerry Friedman
2021-03-16 15:45:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
I hear both, never bothered by either one, but I use the same one you
do.
The one currently bothering me is people who say "wizened" as
"wise-end".
That's an example of the current fashion of vowel-lengthening.
Maybe, or maybe it's people thinking it means "wise" and not "old and
wrinkled".
Post by Graham
Another mis-pronunciation is "sh" for "ch".
I've heard "shintz" for "chintz" but the best example, which combines
"Grinning like a Sheshyre Cat!"
Which CBC? Canadian? They might have though they were sounding like
posh Brits?
No Brit, posh or otherwise, would ever pronounce "Cheshire" that way.
I didn't say a Brit would. But I have certainly heard a lot of people
mispronounce things because they thought they were sounding British )or
French).
For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".
Cf. "repertoire" pronounced "repertwa", which I heard the other day on NPR.
--
Jerry Friedman
Kerr-Mudd,John
2021-03-16 17:32:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 15:45:36 GMT, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Lewis
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
I hear both, never bothered by either one, but I use the same
one you do.
The one currently bothering me is people who say "wizened" as
"wise-end".
That's an example of the current fashion of vowel-lengthening.
Maybe, or maybe it's people thinking it means "wise" and not "old
and wrinkled".
Post by Graham
Another mis-pronunciation is "sh" for "ch".
I've heard "shintz" for "chintz" but the best example, which
combines both "sh" and vowel lengthening was someone on the CBC
saying: "Grinning like a Sheshyre Cat!"
Which CBC? Canadian? They might have though they were sounding
like posh Brits?
No Brit, posh or otherwise, would ever pronounce "Cheshire" that way.
I didn't say a Brit would. But I have certainly heard a lot of people
mispronounce things because they thought they were sounding British
)or French).
For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".
Cf. "repertoire" pronounced "repertwa", which I heard the other day on NPR.
Close enough?
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Jerry Friedman
2021-03-16 19:25:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 15:45:36 GMT, Jerry Friedman
...
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Lewis
But I have certainly heard a lot of people
mispronounce things because they thought they were sounding British
)or French).
For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".
Cf. "repertoire" pronounced "repertwa", which I heard the other day on NPR.
Close enough?
If you've got an [r] in the middle, you might as well have one at the end.
--
Jerry Friedman
Ken Blake
2021-03-16 18:49:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Lewis
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
I hear both, never bothered by either one, but I use the same one you
do.
The one currently bothering me is people who say "wizened" as
"wise-end".
That's an example of the current fashion of vowel-lengthening.
Maybe, or maybe it's people thinking it means "wise" and not "old and
wrinkled".
Post by Graham
Another mis-pronunciation is "sh" for "ch".
I've heard "shintz" for "chintz" but the best example, which combines
"Grinning like a Sheshyre Cat!"
Which CBC? Canadian? They might have though they were sounding like
posh Brits?
No Brit, posh or otherwise, would ever pronounce "Cheshire" that way.
I didn't say a Brit would. But I have certainly heard a lot of people
mispronounce things because they thought they were sounding British )or
French).
For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".
Cf. "repertoire" pronounced "repertwa", which I heard the other day on NPR.
And "vichysoise" is often pronounced vish-ee-SHWA.
--
Ken
Graham
2021-03-16 18:48:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
I hear both, never bothered by either one, but I use the same one you
do.
The one currently bothering me is people who say "wizened" as
"wise-end".
That's an example of the current fashion of vowel-lengthening.
Maybe, or maybe it's people thinking it means "wise" and not "old and
wrinkled".
Post by Graham
Another mis-pronunciation is "sh" for "ch".
I've heard "shintz" for "chintz" but the best example, which combines
"Grinning like a Sheshyre Cat!"
Which CBC? Canadian? They might have though they were sounding like
posh Brits?
No Brit, posh or otherwise, would ever pronounce "Cheshire" that way.
I didn't say a Brit would. But I have certainly heard a lot of people
mispronounce things because they thought they were sounding British )or
French).
For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".
Also:
Poe-de-crème
Rizoatoh
Coasta Rica
Noter Daime
Fountainblue
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2021-03-16 19:00:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
I hear both, never bothered by either one, but I use the same one you
do.
The one currently bothering me is people who say "wizened" as
"wise-end".
That's an example of the current fashion of vowel-lengthening.
Maybe, or maybe it's people thinking it means "wise" and not "old and
wrinkled".
Post by Graham
Another mis-pronunciation is "sh" for "ch".
I've heard "shintz" for "chintz" but the best example, which combines
"Grinning like a Sheshyre Cat!"
Which CBC? Canadian? They might have though they were sounding like
posh Brits?
No Brit, posh or otherwise, would ever pronounce "Cheshire" that way.
I didn't say a Brit would. But I have certainly heard a lot of people
mispronounce things because they thought they were sounding British )or
French).
For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".
Poe-de-crème
Rizoatoh
Coasta Rica
Noter Daime
Tony will doubtless, know, but I think that's what the university in
Indiana is called.
Post by Graham
Fountainblue
My daughter worked for ten years in Fontainebleau, so I know how to say it.

As for "Cheshire", I say ['tʃeʃə] (chesha, if you like). Do you?
Pronouncing -shire as [ʃɑɪ̯ər] is typically American (though as an
isolated word, not a suffix, it's more or less that, with the [r]:
[ʃɑɪ̯ə]).
--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years
Graham
2021-03-16 19:14:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
I hear both, never bothered by either one, but I use the same one you
do.
The one currently bothering me is people who say "wizened" as
"wise-end".
That's an example of the current fashion of vowel-lengthening.
Maybe, or maybe it's people thinking it means "wise" and not "old and
wrinkled".
Post by Graham
Another mis-pronunciation is "sh" for "ch".
I've heard "shintz" for "chintz" but the best example, which combines
"Grinning like a Sheshyre Cat!"
Which CBC? Canadian? They might have though they were sounding  like
posh Brits?
No Brit, posh or otherwise, would ever pronounce "Cheshire" that way.
I didn't say a Brit would. But I have certainly heard a lot of people
mispronounce things because they thought they were sounding British )or
French).
For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".
Poe-de-crème
Rizoatoh
Coasta Rica
Noter Daime
Tony will doubtless, know, but I think that's what the university in
Indiana is called.
When the cathedral in Paris went up in smoke, TV and radio journalists
rarely got it right. Noter Daime, Noter Darm, Notruh Daime and sometimes
Notruh Darm.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Graham
Fountainblue
My daughter worked for ten years in Fontainebleau, so I know how to say it.
As for "Cheshire", I say ['tʃeʃə] (chesha, if you like). Do you?
Pronouncing -shire as [ʃɑɪ̯ər] is typically American (though as an
isolated word, not a suffix, it's more or less that, with the [r]: [ʃɑɪ̯ə]).
I am originally from Suffolk so I don't speak Canadian nor (heaven
forbid) American:-)
Peter T. Daniels
2021-03-16 20:43:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graham
When the cathedral in Paris went up in smoke, TV and radio journalists
rarely got it right. Noter Daime, Noter Darm, Notruh Daime and sometimes
Notruh Darm.
?? Who would put an r into "Dame"?
Tony Cooper
2021-03-16 19:17:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 20:00:46 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
I hear both, never bothered by either one, but I use the same one you
do.
The one currently bothering me is people who say "wizened" as
"wise-end".
That's an example of the current fashion of vowel-lengthening.
Maybe, or maybe it's people thinking it means "wise" and not "old and
wrinkled".
Post by Graham
Another mis-pronunciation is "sh" for "ch".
I've heard "shintz" for "chintz" but the best example, which combines
"Grinning like a Sheshyre Cat!"
Which CBC? Canadian? They might have though they were sounding like
posh Brits?
No Brit, posh or otherwise, would ever pronounce "Cheshire" that way.
I didn't say a Brit would. But I have certainly heard a lot of people
mispronounce things because they thought they were sounding British )or
French).
For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".
Poe-de-crème
Rizoatoh
Coasta Rica
Noter Daime
Tony will doubtless, know, but I think that's what the university in
Indiana is called.
Pronounced that way by some, but a bit of a difference in spelling,
though.

Some say "Noter Dame", some say "Nodder Dame" (short "o"), and some
say "Notra Dame".
--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida
Jerry Friedman
2021-03-16 19:46:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 20:00:46 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
I hear both, never bothered by either one, but I use the same one you
do.
The one currently bothering me is people who say "wizened" as
"wise-end".
That's an example of the current fashion of vowel-lengthening.
Maybe, or maybe it's people thinking it means "wise" and not "old and
wrinkled".
Post by Graham
Another mis-pronunciation is "sh" for "ch".
I've heard "shintz" for "chintz" but the best example, which combines
"Grinning like a Sheshyre Cat!"
Which CBC? Canadian? They might have though they were sounding like
posh Brits?
No Brit, posh or otherwise, would ever pronounce "Cheshire" that way.
I didn't say a Brit would. But I have certainly heard a lot of people
mispronounce things because they thought they were sounding British )or
French).
For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".
Poe-de-crème
Rizoatoh
Coasta Rica
Noter Daime
Tony will doubtless, know, but I think that's what the university in
Indiana is called.
Pronounced that way by some, but a bit of a difference in spelling,
though.
Some say "Noter Dame", some say "Nodder Dame" (short "o"), and some
say "Notra Dame".
I've never heard the "Notter" version, but I'm sure you've heard the
university mentioned much more than I have.

For further evidence on the pronunciation of the second word,

Rally sons of Notre Dame:
Sing her glory and sound her fame,
Raise her Gold and Blue
And cheer with voices true:
Rah, rah, for Notre Dame
We will fight in ev'ry game,
Strong of heart and true to her name
We will ne’er forget her
And will cheer her ever
Loyal to Notre Dame

{Begin chorus, that is, the part that a lot of Americans know, at least
the tune.)

Cheer, cheer for old Notre Dame,
Wake up the echoes cheering her name,
Send a volley cheer on high,
Shake down the thunder from the sky.
What though the odds be great or small
Old Notre Dame will win over all,
While her loyal sons are marching
Onward to victory.
--
Jerry Friedman
Loading...